MAGIC! - 27
The following was compiled from the magician's message section of
MAGIC!(tm). MAGIC! is an electronic communications system for
magicians. It may be accessed from any personal computer with a
modem by dialing US 818-896-7450. Access is free, except for
normal telephone company charges. New registrants must leave a
comment with their name, address, phone number and a brief resume
of their magic background to be considered for membership. The
material herein should be treated as confidentially as other
magic information. Copyright 1991 by MAGIC!, All rights reserved.
Msg #3000 Dated 1:21:49 05-21-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: NO LUNCH
An interesting notion! In my neighborhood it would go over BIG if I
used hubcaps. Audiences always like something they can relate to.
Msg #3006 Dated 6:03:44 05-21-91 -> 3008
From: CHARLIE RANDALL
To: ALL
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Max is right. It does border on insulting if someone asks you to
perform in a social setting. Comedians have made jokes about this for
years -- "So you're a comedian, let's see some funny stuff". To which
the comedian replies: "So you're an insurance salesman, let's see some
insurance stuff". (I would not recommend this, you may get 12 hours of
insurance talk.) I have a good friend who is a doctor. At parties,
when people find out she is one, she is ALWAYS shown a growth on
someone's neck, told about someone's grandfather strange condition,
etc. Her stock answer is "I'm not that kind of a doctor, but you
(he/she) should see YOUR doctor."
Actually insulting my be too harsh a term. People are naturally
curious and usually just want to know more. Maybe the actual term is
inconsiderate.
As for me I find it hard to perform in such situations, especially if
there are a lot of people. If you do something really good, people
will be bugging you for the rest of the night to show it to them again
or to Joe who didn't see it the first time, etc. Sooner or later
you'll have to say no.
Charlie
Msg #3007 Dated 6:12:33 05-21-91 -> 3179
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: ORIGAMI
You're welcome.
Msg #3008 Dated 7:39:44 05-21-91 3006 <--> 3021
From: TABBY CRABB
To: CHARLIE RANDALL (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
That is a tough question for sure but anytime a professional
in any field is asked to "perform" his/her specialty in a social
setting an enigma arises. Since they do the thing for dinero it
isn't fair (nor cool) to request a "free sample." It shows a lack
of understanding on the part of the asker.
In my readings on Max Malini, however, I understand he would
always be prepared to perform; this is how he built his
reputation and his business, so it was a calculated effort on his
part, so I guess it depends on the personality and desires of the
magician as to whether they give in.
Years ago when I was a "famous" musician I went home to my
20th highschool reunion. The people there made my life miserable
trying to get me onstage with the band, which I didn't do since
they (the band) didn't know my stuff (originals), etc. I finally
left early vowing never to return since I wanted to have a
peaceful evening with a coupla my old hs buddies (who didn't bug
me bytheway, why should they since they knew me when I was bad).
I say, if you want to perform at parties and social
functions, just go ahead and do it. Find a table and start;
you'll draw a crowd. If you're good you'll get the girl(guy) and
go home a hero. If you're bad, then you won't have to worry about
being asked to do it again, so what's the worry.
There's room for all philosophies in the field of magic.
This is the beauty of it all to me. The diversity of personality,
interest, expertise, intellect (or lack thereof), etc fills me
with wonder much more than the "tricks." My business partner
asked me if "I enjoyed the magic show?" when I got home from LA.
"I didn't go to a magic show", I went to visit (which is my
strong suit) and hang out and nobody asked me to play or do a
trick. The magic is in the people anyway and more and more I find
myself agreeing with Geno Munari when he says, "Magicians are my
friends, hell they're my only friends!" Besides, now that I'm a
semi-pro blackjack player nobody ever asks.
Msg #3012 Dated 9:32:29 05-21-91 -> 3065
From: PETE BIRO
To: MIKE KING (X)
Re: ILLUSION BUILDER
Are you a "hired" act or are you entering the competition?
Msg #3013 Dated 9:33:10 05-21-91 -> 3039
From: PETE BIRO
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: BONES
At Liberty, eh!
Msg #3014 Dated 9:34:27 05-21-91
From: PETE BIRO
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: ME
I registered it many moons ago with Writers Guild. (I think) HAR?
Msg #3015 Dated 9:35:21 05-21-91 -> 3016
From: PETE BIRO
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I have avoided this thread. Why? I dunno. But here is MY FUMBLE
OPINION.
If I am at a party, or a dinner with a group of people that I like and
I have something with me -- I WILL PERFORM IF ASKED. Never if Not
asked. If it is a gathering where most are strangers and someone in the
group KNOWS YOU and tells them "pete is a magician... he does GREAT
stuff (which is true) you REALLY need to peform. Otherwise you LET YOUR
FRIEND DOWN. Nobody understands professionalism in these situations.
There is an old saying somewhere that if you are a real magician yu
should be able to magish anytime anyyplace.... it would be good to be
always ready with something, no matter how minor it is.
The thing boils down to... IF YOU LOVE MAGIC AND LOVE TO PERFORM, YOU
SHOULD. If you treat it strictly as a business then don't tell anybody
you are a magician.
I went through a period where I shunned doing anything. I would say, "I
used to perform, but I am OUT OF PRACTICE" this got Aaarrrrggghhhs for
a response... Suddenly I find that I am now HOT AND READY TO ENTERTAIN
FOLKS ANYTIME ANYPLACE.... HMMMMM OR IS IT "HAR"....
Msg #3016 Dated 9:41:03 05-21-91 -> 3030
From: PETE BIRO
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Har... you got me mixed up with Bill Wells the Grape man.... but I
agree with him (see a message I just filed, moments ago).
Msg #3017 Dated 9:42:40 05-21-91 -> 3178
From: PETE BIRO
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: NO LUNCH
We really weren't going to say, but the "real" Okito box is the one he
is buried in. And... did you know that Jack Gwynn is buried in a coffin
with a little hole at each end.
Msg #3018 Dated 9:44:19 05-21-91 2998 <--> 3022
From: PETE BIRO
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
Topper Martyn (a world class juggler) tosses three LaCrosse balls,doing
the funny stuff and one by one they get smaller and finally vanish.
Msg #3019 Dated 9:45:25 05-21-91 -> 3059
From: PETE BIRO
To: KEVIN MEADOR
Re: COSTUMES
You could phone one of the shows (call the hotel, such as the
Tropicana) and ask for "Backstage" when someone answers ask for the
wardrobe person... Hey its a start. Try not to buy catalog stuff.
Arrrggghhh... Unless you call Abbotts.
Msg #3021 Dated 9:50:22 05-21-91 3006 <--> 3031
From: PETE BIRO
To: CHARLIE RANDALL (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Something I may not have made clear earlier... YOU HAVE TO BE IN THE
*RIGHT* mood, situation, vibes, etc. to work. Somethins I hold my hands
up in grotesque pose and say, "What, with these arthritic handss?" and
walk away....
Msg #3022 Dated 9:46:48 05-21-91 -> 3024
From: PHIL BENEDICTO
To: SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
One gag that I've used for a number of kids shows that seems to work
well is having them throw an invisible ball into a paper bag. I make
the noise of a ball entering the bag by holding the bag between thumb
and forefinger and flicking my middle finger against the inside the
bag. It's hard to describe but the positioning is with my middle
finger resting on my forefinger's nail. Get the picture? Anyway, this
play great with little kids. They all want to throw the ball. Later
I produce a real ball and perform other miracles. I think this ball
thing is original, at least, as far as I've read(but then again I don't
read as much as I should).
I hope this helps. This gag is very near and dear to my heart since
this is one of my earliest memories of the cool stuff my late father
used to do.
Msg #3023 Dated 10:07:40 05-21-91 -> 3035
From: TABBY CRABB
To: ALL
Re: BLACKSTONE RULES
Catch the Faith Daniels Show today. Blackstone rules. You've gotta see
it. No thanks to the tabman who sat in the greenroom for hours only to
be sent home. I had Penns hair down. Rats!! Blackstone! Blackstone!
Blackstone!
Hey, Penn did a good job too. Faith was a Blackstone fan in 20 minits.
Teller almost drowns.
Msg #3024 Dated 10:52:19 05-21-91 -> 3045
From: MARVIN STERN
To: SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
In case you're interested, there is a very large group of jugglers,
some world class and in the Guinness Book, that get together every
Thursday night at 8:30 PM, in the gym at LA Valley College. They
juggle everydthign - golf clubs, 5 gal water jugs, should say bottles
so not to get in trouble with the word jugs. 7 balls at a time, you
name it, and it's flying around there. Usually 50-75 people show-up.
You might pick-up some ideas.
Msg #3025 Dated 10:57:45 05-21-91 -> 3026
From: MARVIN STERN
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: LUNCH
The checks in the mail.
Msg #3026 Dated 10:58:35 05-21-91 -> 3032
From: MARVIN STERN
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: LUNCH
I meant to say, " the check is in the mail".
Msg #3027 Dated 10:59:35 05-21-91 -> 3034
From: MARVIN STERN
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGICIAN'S ASSISTANT
He could use a little of the vest on top.
Msg #3028 Dated 11:36:45 05-21-91
From: MARVIN STERN
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: LUNCHEON
I'm glad you like it.
Msg #3030 Dated 11:48:19 05-21-91 3015 <--> 3060
From: EVAN KATZ
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Letting the friends down angle is interesting, hm...
Magic really IS different from other arts. Answers are scarce.
Msg #3031 Dated 11:50:56 05-21-91 3006 <--> 3040
From: EVAN KATZ
To: CHARLIE RANDALL (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Insulting IS to harsh a term. Inconsiderate is probably also too harsh
a term. Causing one displeasure is a more appropritate term.
Msg #3032 Dated 11:52:06 05-21-91 3025 <--> 3036
From: EVAN KATZ
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: LUNCH
Marvin--
I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself. And, I have to say to your credit,
you didn't take the bait!
DRAT!
Msg #3033 Dated 11:52:13 05-21-91 -> 3037
From: TABBY CRABB
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: HE SAID WHAT
He said I am older than he, but I don't think so. He
couldn't even remembre the year he was born. Now he says 1946
when it was 1945 a few days ago. Then I said at least I was
smarter then had to call him to help me figure out why my mouse
wouldn't crawl.
Incidently, the presentation I respectfully made to Dave at
the MAGIC! lunch the other day is officially called the Nueva
Decada and will be presented decadely by the tabman, assuming I
see 2001, to someone for fun. I used to give record promoters the
"Tabby Crabb Bullet Award" when they got my stuff on Cashbox.
They held a live .308 round perpendicular to the wall. I've seen
how much David puts into this board and the thought of actually
being the sysop is scarey. My hat's off toem.
Msg #3034 Dated 12:12:28 05-21-91 3027 <--> 3038
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: MAGICIAN'S ASSISTANT
True! I hate being bald.
Msg #3035 Dated 12:13:49 05-21-91 3023 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: BLACKSTONE RULES
Just finished seeing the show in between phone calls - thank goodness
for videotape! Yeah! Blackstone rules! He delivered some stunners!
(Although he is probably the only person in America who has trouble
vanishing a small silk - a very subtle byplay on his part). And Penn
dropped way back on all his claims - admitting that they don't reveal
anything that is "real" magic.
Blackstone delivered the BEST LINE - "The real magic is how you get
booked again."
It would have been MUCH BETTER with the TABMAN on, but Harry got pretty
close to getting some of your lines in.
Msg #3036 Dated 12:28:49 05-21-91 3032 <-
From: MARVIN STERN
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: LUNCH
When you stop by, I'll give you a cup of coffee, and that will take
care of the $2.
Msg #3037 Dated 12:31:18 05-21-91 3033 <--> 3042
From: MARVIN STERN
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: HE SAID WHAT
The presentation to
ops Dave, from you, was nice. No kidding.
Msg #3038 Dated 12:32:36 05-21-91 3034 <--> 3048
From: MARVIN STERN
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGICIAN'S ASSISTANT
The word is "bald".
Msg #3039 Dated 13:01:18 05-21-91 3013 <--> 3080
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: BONES
HAR-dee-HAR-HAR!!!
Msg #3040 Dated 13:04:02 05-21-91 3031 <--> 3228
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Perhaps displeasure is too harsh a term...
...howabout headache, neuritis, neuralgea.
Msg #3042 Dated 13:11:04 05-21-91 3037 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: HE SAID WHAT
No kidding? And you're always kidding around too.
Msg #3043 Dated 13:24:33 05-21-91 -> 3078
From: PETE BIRO
To: ALL
Re: LECTURE NOTES
JUST SITTIN' HERE IN INDIANAPOLIS (HUMIDIAPOLIS!!!) and thought maybe
upload the lecture notes from last night. Here comes!
The Official Lecture of the 75th running of the 1991 Indy 500.
Lecture Notes of Pete Biro, celebrating his 30th Consecutive Year
of covering the "Greatest Spectacle in racing". These are notes
only. For more details, buy the book (which is slowly being
written).
Lectures come in many forms. The most popular in magic features a
performer doing his tricks and fooling his audience, followed by
an explanation of the methods. I am NOT one that likes to do it
this way. Fooling you is not my goal. Entertaining you is!
And making you THINK about what you do is even more important.
I have actually come up with a couple of new ways to present what
you will see here tonight in the past week, and have, in fact
been "re-writing" the notes since I hit town!
Additionaly, you will find that I keep repeating the same quote
over and over again. It comes from the acknowledged "best all-
around magical performer of our time", the late Fred Kaps.
It was HIS philosophy. And it should be your philosophy. He just
said one thing, "THINK ABOUT IT!"
In no particular order -- Item 1: Jumping cigarette. Simple bit.
A piece of paper rolled around a nail, that looks like a
cigarette, attached to a reel. Reel is in your mouth, when
released, the cigarette jumps from the pack into your mouth.
Patter is difficult, so it is best done silent. Pat Page found a
way to set in the middle of an act, by telling audience you will
do an impression. He turned his back, like impressionists often
do, put the reel in his mouth... the rest is history.
Item 2: Grind-A-Ring. The box is a Roy Roth dealer item. The
routine is mine. The Ring is ground to Gold Dust, the dust set
fire and the ring VISIBLY appears in the flame. My origination is
the re-appearance of the ring. Make the gaff from an extending
pointer (like a car antaena) by putting a metal hook on the end.
I used a thick wire paper clip, epoxy glue and that was it. The
ring must be caught by the hook when it slides down the pointer.
Basic routine. Borrow ring. Grind it (gaff automatically loads
into your finger palm) to dust. Pour dust into 4-inch square of
flash paper. Twist like candy kiss. Have spectator hold the
packet, bring out the pointer. Load the ring onto the thick end,
to cover noise of ring, open pointer at same time. Pack of dust,
in flash paper is hung onto hook. Light packet and under cover of
the FLASH let ring slide down to hook. It cannot be seen and it
will look like it just appeared on the end of the pointer.
Item 3: NO PALM Card to Pocket. Card selected, control to top (I
use and demonstrate the Jerry Andrus Sidewinder Shift) then
overhand shuffle card to bottom (this sets up correct grip to
deck and body language) you now reach into inside coat pocket
with empty right hand as left hand does GLIDE, brings deck near
coat edge. Right hand nips card (left hand drops away) and brings
it from pocket or loads into wallet. Great hand position for
Balducci or Kaps type wallet.
Item 45 (OK, I lost count): Vanishing birdcage. For a pull I use
a full loop of fishing cord. It goes around your thumb, up
sleeve, across to other sleeve and down. When finished you can
reach into your bag and dump cage, pull and all. Inspired by
Hungarian Steve Shephard (who's method remains a secret) the
first magician I ever saw, as a child. He closed with cage and
stripped to his shorts, while being searched. No cage could be
found. I did not know or do magic at this time, but I vividly
remembered the effect.
Item 6: Hide and Seek thimbles. This was worked out so you did
not have to turn your back to half the audience as most
manipulators seem to do. The thimble is transferred from one
finger to the other, winding up on your thumb. A hide and seek is
played (Ken Brooke marketed this under the name "Pete's Peeper")
and for the finale the thimble stretches to 8-inches. Long
thimble is dropped down sleeve at start of routine. Small thimble
was stuck on end of long thimble for set up.
Item 7: Impromptu Vanish of three chairs while surrounded by
spectators holding hands. Not sure if conditions will allow this.
Item 8: Potty Prediction NE PLUS ULTRA, etc. Variant on McComical
Deck and Ken Brooke's Potty Prediction. Rough/smooth deck shows
all same faces 2D, but forces 8C. You predict the 2D but they
think you have missed when card shown as 8C. The slate(s) change
the prediction. One version with Thayer Dr. Q slate and pieces of
playing card on the flap, other uses Al Baker swinging flap.
Either works as good as the other.
Item 9: Severn/Biro impromptu Rising Card. Card chosen, deck
wrapped in envelope, sealed. Pencil is stuck through the envlope,
packet shaken, "to test the weight" and a card rises. It is the
wrong card. Card goes back down and the correct card comes up to
tremendous applause. EZ to do. Use svengali deck (TV Magic Cards
to the current generation) and wrap a rubber band around middle
of pencil. Under cover of the shaking, you slowly rotate pencil
to raise and lower cards. You need to tear off the top end of the
envlope and peek in to see which card to bring up first. Reverse
rotation changes the cards.
Item 10: Electric Deck Handling. Not described here. If you
didn't see the lecture you don't deserve to know what I showed.
Item 11: The Stick that FOOLED JOE BERG. Chinese sticks are on of
my favorites, although the audiences don't seem to like it
anymore. Using the Owen Supreme sticks (I like the way they look
and show up on stage) I modified one by lining it with Teflon
tubing (Kovari learned this from me and now all his stick are
Teflon lined) and the other changed from operating with a weight
to a reel. The reel is at the back end, with a knob on the
pressure plate to facilitate control. You can now make the tassle
come up without tilting this stick. The routine makes it seem
like you never tilt either stick. The tassle in your pants has a
weight on it and makes your pants leg, in effect, a big Chinese
Stick. Stomach pressure controls the action.
Item 11-B: Histed Sticks AND MORE. Histed will never recognize
his sticks. Many versions of this are around. Pom Pom Sticks,
etc. you name it. I never liked the Pom Pom version. A little
low on the Macho Image. The sticks I have can be made of items
from a hardware store plumbing dept. PVC Pipe and connectors,
string, Sink Stoppers and faucets. (Altho my faucets are fake
plastic ones from a Joke Store, the real thing is as good). The
gaff is a pair of magnets with eye bolts on the end allowing the
two strings to freely run through. Much like the weights in
regular Chinese Sticks. The magnet allows cords to pull one
Msg #3044 Dated 13:28:33 05-21-91
From: PETE BIRO
To: ALL
Re: LONG MSG
I guess I screwed up andthe message with lecture notes was too long.
Will sort out and do part two after I see what length did get sent.
Msg #3045 Dated 13:29:30 05-21-91 3022 <--> 3075
From: PETE BIRO
To: PHIL BENEDICTO (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
The master at this old bit of business was (and still is) Roger Ray. He
was on the Ed Sullivan show many times and will do his act at the IBM
in Baltimore. He will probably steal the show!
Msg #3046 Dated 13:38:14 05-21-91 -> 3049
From: PETE BIRO
To: ALL
Re: NOTES TWO
The Official Lecture of the 75th running of the 1991 Indy 500. Lecture
Notes of Pete Biro, celebrating his 30th Consecutive Year
of covering the "Greatest Spectacle in racing". These are notes only.
For more details, buy the book (which is slowly being written). THIS IS
PART TWO OF THE LECTURE NOTES MESSAGE. (Cont'd)regular Chinese Sticks.
The magnet allows cords to pull one another, or separate, with the
right pulling action. When held vertically and allowed back to gether
the magnets re-join the cords. The patter is based on the California
draught, with the closing comment from Ali Bongo's version in the book
"Magic Circle Magic". Item 12-R: Watch winder. Huh? Nothing much here.
But a LESSON IN ACTING. Item 12-Q: Milk In Lightbulb. I don't do it,
but ANOTHER LESSON IN ACTING. Item 13: 12-R and 12-Q may be the two
best items in this lecture.
Then again, they may not. But they should be studied. Item 14:
Diminishing Cards. The deck is made by cutting a full deck of 52 in
half, longways. With half cards stacked square, drill a hole dead
center thru the cards (1/16th) -- then drill another hole at the lower
left corner about 1/4-inch from edges. With an Exacto knife cut a
1/16th slot from hole to hole. Run a bolt through the slot and fasten
securely, with enough slack to allow it to slide back and forth through
the slot. At the front should be a Face Card that folds in half. At the
top of the face card, on its back, glue on a 1/4-size miniature card.
Start with the pivot (bolt) at the bottom, with face card open. Fan (it
is automatic at the pivot point) close fan, move pivot point up half
way, fan and cards are half size. Fold face card forward (mini shows)
move pivot to top. You get the minimum size fan (a rosette). Karrell
Fox said this was the best for repeat (trade shows) use as there were
no loose pieces to worry about. Item 15: Cut up cards. The original
was a dove pan type card box made in steel by Richard Himber. Chosen
card lost in deck, put in
box with razor blade. Blade CHOPS (?) all cards to bits, except
selected card. This box is made of 1/16th black plastic and works
on the turnover principle. Easy to make. Plastic shops will cut the
pieces for you. Make a cardboard pattern to get the size you need. You
can use the gag "electric razor" (a double edge razor holder with an
electrical plug attached to the end) and a Joy Buzzer to add to the
bits of business.
Msg #3048 Dated 13:56:57 05-21-91 3038 <--> 3184
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: MAGICIAN'S ASSISTANT
As in "soon"? If so, it isn't spelled "Bald," it is spelled
Bet-Lamed-Daled.
Msg #3049 Dated 14:02:08 05-21-91 3046 <--> 3227
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: NOTES TWO
Wow! Knockout stuff, Pete! And we didn't even have to attend the
lecture! Now that's the way I like to see a lecture...
Msg #3050 Dated 14:46:22 05-21-91
From: ANDREW T OAKDEN
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: ZOMBIE ROUTINES
I don't understand.
Msg #3051 Dated 16:14:02 05-21-91
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: NOTES
Thanks for sharing your notes with us, Pete! Great stuff...(even
though you did hold back the real work on your famous Har variant.)
(!)
Msg #3057 Dated 17:10:32 05-21-91 -> 3128
From: TABBY CRABB
To: SOP
Re: AGE BEFORE BEAUTY
OK, I guess you are both younger and smarter than I, but can
you tell me one thing. What's an intelligent and youthful guy
such as yourself doing hanging around with an old guy like me? I
mean like three months is supposed to make a difference or
something. I guess you can find comfort in knowing that as long
as I'm alive there is somebody older than you running around the
planet. BTW, thanks for the fax of your drivers license, it seems
to work better than that fly paper we've been hanging in the barn
over Bossie's stall.
Msg #3059 Dated 17:29:44 05-21-91 3019 <--> 3090
From: MAX MAVEN
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: COSTUMES
I don't think calling backstage at a showroom is going to be helpful;
most of the wardrobe people are concerned with cleaning, pressing and
alterations, not designing. Backstage tends to be busy, and few will
respond with pleasure to such intrusion.
One place to look is a Las Vegas publication called "Dirt Alert,"
which has a lot of ads and listings for such as costume designers.
Their address is:
Dirt Alert
3909 S. Maryland Pkwy.
Suite 311B
Las Vegas, NV 89119
(702)-796-5440
Msg #3060 Dated 17:33:54 05-21-91 -> 3061
From: MAX MAVEN
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Correction. My position is not that it is "never appropriate to do
something for free at a social gathering," but rather that it is rarely
so.
By the way, this does not mean that I think impromptu material is not
of value. I have a fair-sized repertoire of propless material. In the
past two years, to my recollection, I have had _one_ social occasion
where I made use of it, but it was a valuable situation where having a
range of material to draw upon was quite useful.
Msg #3061 Dated 17:36:36 05-21-91 -> 3062
From: MAX MAVEN
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Previous discussion on this board had to do with the question of why
magic is considered so low on the artistic totem pole. Perhaps one
(surely not the only) reason is that there are so many amateur
magicians who are so desperate for an opportunity to strut their stuff
they'll perform anywhere, anytime. The slightest hint of a request is
enough to occasion a lengthy show, and they'll find ways to maneuver
such a request in the first place.
Thus, in a sense, the reason that people expect magicians to perform in
a casual situation may stem _not_ from its being unique, but rather
because over-eager practitioners have rendered it pedestrian.
Msg #3062 Dated 17:40:16 05-21-91 3015 <--> 3079
From: MAX MAVEN
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
The notion that "if you are a real magician you should be able to
magish anytime anyplace" is, I believe, based upon our collective
reading of the exploits of some of the old-time names. We've all read
about Herrmann producing coins in a marketplace, or some of Malini's
extraordinary spur-of-the-moment things.
However, what's forgotten about these stories is that they concern
deliberately planned promotion, which is a very different context from
what is under discussion here.
I'll differ with your suggestion that choosing not to perform in such
circumstances indicates an attitude toward magic as "strictly... a
business." It is my profession, I love it passionately, and am opposed
to casual performance in the majority of situations. I have no problem
in maintaining these views at the same time; no internal conflict.
Bottom line: I know what I do. I have credentials to back it up, and no
driving need to keep proving it informally.
Msg #3063 Dated 17:52:27 05-21-91 -> 3096
From: MAX MAVEN
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: DECK
Regarding the idea of a pack of cards with a different magician on each
one, you might be interested in a poster recently marketed by Marvin's
Magic in England (run by Marvin Berglas, David's son). It is a
full-color poster showing an entire pack, with each card bearing a
photograph of one of the performers on the two "Best of Magic" series.
They distributed the performers alphabetically, with some adjustments
along the way.
Msg #3065 Dated 18:47:29 05-21-91 3012 <--> 3097
From: MIKE KING
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: ILLUSION BUILDER
Just trying the act out on the magic farternity, via the adult
competition. I however have been booking the act for work in the late
summer and fall. Mainly cruise work and club work, here in L.A., Las
Vegas and some dates in Europe in the late Fall (November). The act
is mainly suited for work as part of a review, but and constructing a
few more of the big scale things to expand it to about 25 to 40. The
new stuff includes a levitation I had designed over ten years ago and
am finally getting around to building and using. The levi centers
around an Excalibur type sword. It will have dare I use the term
"patter" by Tom Palmer aka Tony Andruzzi and a short film projected on
the backdrop while the story of the sword and it's magical powers is
read, set to music. Very John Boorman (Director of EXCALIBUR) but
early runthrus with a proto-type has looked good and as much as I would
like to use it in Vegas, it's just not ready yet. I spend a great deal
of time practin
of time practicing, practicing and practicing, but you know the best
thing you can do for your act and that's the three "Ps". I have spent
more than my share of years awau from the craft and want my first
outings to prove successful. I also would like to into the levi upon
the completion of a small book I have written about levitation. The
text is in it's last stages, but I still need to illustrate. and I
really suck when it comes to drawing good workshop drawings. So I have
shelfed the project while I work towards the SAM gig. Only five times
in the past ten years. Something tells me it won't belong until it's
ready for print. Have publisher and may breakdown and just use
halftones. Just don't know yet. I guess I'll see in July, after the
SAM. I'm sure your wondering about my means of income, magic or what?
I work as a producer/director in the feature film industry and have
been lucky enough to get some work here on the coast in the magic
world. Mainly playing magicians in music videos, just finished "MOODY
BLUE", "Say it with Love" and a small Cups and Balls deal in the new
Spielberg film "HOOK". Would like to do more magic but production work
(Film and Televison) pays the bills. Well I've chewed about enought of
your ear off. Enjoyed hearing from you. Don't know alot of the folks
out here, so it's always nice to have contact with someone new. Talk
at you soon. MIKE KING
Msg #3067 Dated 19:28:32 05-21-91 -> 3130
From: BURT CARPENTER
To: BRUCE SANDERCOCK (X)
Re: THE END IS HERE
I don't normally accept orders without the check being in as I have to
pay for the books up front. It would probably be rather hard for me to
resell a book autographed to you. But, since you know Marvin Stern I
will make an exeption just this once. Consider the book ordered for you
but please send a check as soon as possible. The address again is:
Burt Carpenter
23900 Ironwood Ave #B-126
Moreno Valley, CA 92387
$39.95+ $2.50 postage=$42.45
Thanks for the participation. For a more complete description see
message #1699
Msg #3068 Dated 19:34:02 05-21-91
From: BURT CARPENTER
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: THE END IS HERE
Not yet but am working on it. I have one more possibility back East.
Will let you know.
Msg #3075 Dated 23:42:38 05-21-91 -> 3077
From: DANTE LARSEN
To: SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
I recently (3 nights ago) saw a fella on PBS
named Joey Joey who juggled clubs while riding
a unicycle with sword in his throat. Washington
Square Park. Fantastic.
Msg #3077 Dated 0:22:44 05-22-91 3075 <--> 3100
From: EVAN KATZ
To: DANTE LARSEN (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
This act does not, as they say, provide a great margin for error.
Msg #3078 Dated 0:26:58 05-22-91 3043 <--> 3101
From: EVAN KATZ
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: LECTURE NOTES
Pete--
Alarmingly ingenious ideas in there! Thank you very much for
sharing them with us, it's very generous. You really should finish
that danged book(s)!!
Thought the svengali rising card was particularly devious and clever!
Msg #3079 Dated 0:29:08 05-22-91 3061 <--> 3089
From: EVAN KATZ
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Max--
It hardly seems fair to blame the amateurs for the low standing of
magic as an art. It strike me that it's the professionals that have
the capacity to do the most damage! I mean, who's going to make a
bigger dent in people's opinions of the art as a whole -- the jerk who
berates you at a party, or someone you've actually paid to go to see,
who's supposed to know what he's doing? Bad singers never gave singing
a bad name, rotten music groups never squelched people's appetite for
music, bad art no matter HOW bad never stopped people from wanting to
go to museums. No, I think the matter has a lot more to do with magic
itself and its purveyors inability to adapt it to modern times.
The problem is not that magic is "pedestrian" (oh, the pain of a
self-inflicted wound), but that the typical magician's performance
reeks of disdain and condescension toward the audience. Penn & Teller,
for instance, could hardly be MORE pedestrian. Yet they've had the
largest impact of any new emerging magicians in the last five years.
Acting like magic is a lofty, high-blown pursuit worth acting supremely
professional seems appropriate to me. But your is a reactionary
attitude I believe, spawned from too many attacks on the art. And why
the attacks? Not because magicians don't act supremely professional,
like yourself, but because there's a basic problem in how the art has
responded to changing times and people.
--Evan
Msg #3080 Dated 0:37:25 05-22-91
From: EVAN KATZ
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: BONES
Will try to compose my thoughts. Until then... !
Msg #3081 Dated 0:38:20 05-22-91 -> 3116
From: DOUGLAS LARSON
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
She said it just came over her and she felt really bad about
it..... No reflection on the performance. When she gets tired
there is no way to stop it. I have to admit that I dragged her
to the evening just so she could have a night to watch some of
the close-up stuff. Unfortunatly it was a hectic day on the job.
I think I heard others mention that it ran on a little longer
than originally planned.
Msg #3083 Dated 1:43:19 05-22-91 1785 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: PS
Tabby -
Bruce Sandercock left you a message (#1785) on May 5th. It was
addressed incorrectly, so the log doesn't show that you read it. Since
it was a public message, it is very likely that you did, but I'd
appreciate it if you'd go back and make sure. Thanks.
Msg #3084 Dated 1:45:52 05-22-91 1789 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: SPEED
Same with message #1789.
Msg #3085 Dated 1:47:41 05-22-91 1901 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: SPEED
Er... same with # 1901.
Msg #3086 Dated 2:25:20 05-22-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: ALL
Re: MAGIC-24
The twenty-fourth set of MAGIC! messages - #1500 (May 1, 1991) to
#1999 (May 8, 1991) - has been transferred to a downloadable
file. The file is named MAGIC-24.TXT. This means that you can
now go to the file area, download this file, and read the twenty-
fourth volume of messages off-line. For those who know how to
use the PKUNZIP system for uncompressing files, there is a
compressed version of this same file. It is called MAGIC-24.ZIP
and is less than 1/2 the size of the full-text version.
Not only will transferring these messages to a file make it easier
for you to obtain a complete set of them, but it will make the
search for new messages easier and faster.
Msg #3087 Dated 2:26:08 05-22-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: ALL
Re: MAGIC-25
The twenty-fifth set of MAGIC! messages - #2000 (May 8, 1991) to
#2499 (May 15, 1991) - has been transferred to a downloadable
file. The file is named MAGIC-25.TXT. This means that you can
now go to the file area, download this file, and read the twenty-
fifth volume of messages off-line. For those who know how to
use the PKUNZIP system for uncompressing files, there is a
compressed version of this same file. It is called MAGIC-25.ZIP
and is less than 1/2 the size of the full-text version.
Not only will transferring these messages to a file make it easier
for you to obtain a complete set of them, but it will make the
search for new messages easier and faster.
Msg #3088 Dated 2:27:01 05-22-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: ALL
Re: MAGIC! OFF-LINE
MAGIC! was off-line for about one hour and 15 minutes early this
morning. We were performing some much needed maintenance.
Theoretically, we should be able to perform about 90% of the
maintenance needed on MAGIC! without taking the system off-line. A few
recent events, however, have made me feel that there are a few problems
which need to be addressed before I am again confident with that
approach.
We will, therefore, be taking MAGIC! off-line for periods of about
one-half hour to one hour from time to time. We will try to schedule
these off-line periods during non-peak hours.
Msg #3089 Dated 2:40:09 05-22-91 3061 <--> 3091
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Max -
The following is generic. It is not a specific response to your
message (although it definitely relates to it) but is a response to the
"put downs" of amateurs that I have noticed around here lately.
Amateurs are a VITAL part of magic (as I suspect they are of singing,
painting, and all other creative arts). They create the marketplace
that provides the magic books and apparatus - if there were no
amateurs, there would be no lectures, VERY few books, no conventions,
no Abbotts.
"Amateur" is a word derived from the Latin word "Amator" - Lover.
According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary it means "Devotee,
Admirer." It also means "One who engages in a pursuit, study, science,
or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession."
In the history of magic, many, if not most, of the contributions to the
art have come from amateurs. They are frequently the ones who are most
passionate about furthering the art. As a matter of fact, I suspect
that even when most "professionals" engage in creative activity, they
do so as "amateurs," as lovers of the art, since I doubt that the
compensation they receive from their shows and even their books are
sufficient to cover the many hours of creative work they put in.
If a postage stamp honoring magic is ever approved, perhaps it should
be one that DOESN'T honor Potter or Houdini, but one that honors
amateur magic and amateur magicians, for these lovers are the ones who
really make the magic happen.
Msg #3090 Dated 8:32:35 05-22-91 3059 <--> 3181
From: PETE BIRO
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: COSTUMES
It worked... my message prompted your reply, which is great!
Msg #3091 Dated 8:33:13 05-22-91 3060 <--> 3092
From: PETE BIRO
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Maybe impromptu (even if it means bringing six coins out of your
pocket) COULD be thought of as a FREE SAMPLE... and an observer could
be a future client.
Msg #3092 Dated 8:34:19 05-22-91 3061 <--> 3093
From: PETE BIRO
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
You hit a good note there Maven-San...
Msg #3093 Dated 8:35:07 05-22-91 3062 <--> 3094
From: PETE BIRO
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Well stated.
Msg #3094 Dated 8:35:52 05-22-91 3079 <--> 3095
From: PETE BIRO
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Maven's points are well spoken and well taken. There are SO MANY out
there that "know" magic but are not performers and have NO IDEA what
kind of trick or tricks are any good.
Sadly, the lecture I did the other night was attended by only TWO
PERSONS that had ANY IDEA of what I was doing or trying to say. One was
Harry Riser, the other was David (didn't get his last name) the rest
didn't have any idea... when I asked for questions... NOT ONE CAME.
One guy said, "I have a trick like that... pointing to a stack of items
on my table... it looks like that but I don't know what it is..." I
said which one? He picked up one of the Chinese Sticks... HE DIDN'T
EVEN KNOW WHAT IT WAS... and said, "I don't know how it works!"
Holy cow....this item has been a SLUM trick in magic sets for a hundred
years.... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
Msg #3095 Dated 8:40:12 05-22-91 3089 <--> 3103
From: PETE BIRO
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Amateurs, or LOVERS are very necessary. But the Judgement shown by so
many (even professionals) sometimes scares the wheeeeee out of me.
Msg #3096 Dated 8:41:04 05-22-91 3063 <--> 3149
From: PETE BIRO
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: DECK
How do i get one?
Msg #3097 Dated 8:42:50 05-22-91 3065 <-
From: PETE BIRO
To: MIKE KING (X)
Re: ILLUSION BUILDER
Nice to hear your story, comments, etc. I saw a video tape of an act
with a film projection as the background (don't know who it was) but
the MAJOR FLAW was that the film was so good themagician came off very
weak... matter of fact the film was also responsible for you not being
able to see the magic. IE like working in front of a TOO BUSY
background. Keep this in mind.
Msg #3100 Dated 8:46:46 05-22-91 3075 <--> 3231
From: PETE BIRO
To: DANTE LARSEN (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
Did the sword show any blood?
Msg #3101 Dated 8:47:20 05-22-91 3078 <--> 3122
From: PETE BIRO
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: LECTURE NOTES
Not to mention ENTERTAINING....!!!!
Msg #3103 Dated 9:01:08 05-22-91 3079 <--> 3104
From: JIM SISTI
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Actually, it's precisely because of the amateurs that magic has lost
its emphasis on ENTERTAINMENT. The average hobbyist, whose circle of
influence is largely other magicians, seeks after effects with which he
can fool his brother magicians. Thus, the emphasis becomes not how we
can better entertain laypeople but how we can change different tricks
around so we can fool those "in the know." I don't know if I've ever
attended an IBM or SAM meeting where the subject of discussion was how
to better entertain. The subject matter always seems to be the next
trick (as if we don't already know enough). I am not discounting magic
as a hobby or interest. . .I just think that a very large line of
distinction needs to be drawn between those who are interested in magic
as a hobby versus those of us who do it for a living. I have a family
to support and I do it solely with my magic. . .so I know that I have
to ENTERTAIN laypeople first. That is my job description. I consider
it the difference between those who play baseball for a living and
those who toss around the ball in the park on weekends. Also, RE: Penn
and Teller. . .take it from someone who just saw them on Broadway.
They are anything but pedestrian. I went with an open mind and I saw,
above all else, a magic show. . .and a good one!
Msg #3104 Dated 9:08:45 05-22-91 3089 <--> 3118
From: JIM SISTI
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Actually, that's the reason that there are so many crappy books,
tricks, etc. because of the weekend warriors who'll buy anything. I
have nothing against the amateurs, EXCEPT when they make my job harder.
I perform six nights a week. One of the hardest things about going up
to a table is to battle the preconceptions that many have about magic
and magicians, created largely by inept amateurs who'll raid the local
magic shop and then think they can do a show. No thought, no
rehearsal, no presentation. . .just tricks, tricks and more tricks. No
wonder there's a market for the stuff Tenyo makes. I agree that pros
probably write and cut videos mostly to further the art and for the
sheer love of it. . .BUT the material is usually that which has been
refined in hot fire of professional performance. As Eugene Burger
said in a recent Magic Menu interview (ooops! Sorry, Dave!), "Magic is
an art form where the amateurs insist on telling the professionals how
to do their work. For myself, I am much more interested in what laymen
say about my work than what other magicians have to say."
Msg #3107 Dated 9:17:57 05-22-91
From: BILL WELLS
To: SCOTT HOSEY (X)
Re: MAGIC TRADING CARDS
Scott, thanks for your nice response. When you make your
decision on the cards and if you then wish to incorporate the
I.B.M. in any way, I will be happy to either make the
presentation of your request for permission to use the logo to
the Board of Trustees or introduce you in the event that you
should wish to make the request. The emphasis would be of course
that the use of the logo would further the awareness of the
I.B.M. to purchasers and collectors of the cards. I would hope
that other magical organizations would be willing to grant
permission as well. In fact, you might have a single card
depicting all the logos. I suspect your greatest efforts will be
expended in getting permission from individuals for use of their
photo and name. Hopefully you can make them realize that the
cards will probably benefit them and magic more than the
realization of a commercial gain insofar as you are concerned.
Let me know if I can help at some point in the future.
Msg #3108 Dated 9:18:34 05-22-91
From: BILL WELLS
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: PENN AND TABMAN CANCELLED
What is this? The Sysop is a Mounds freak? You were role
playing Mohammed on the Mountain of Mounds? Or simply that David
needs to get a chair so you could type longer messages.
Msg #3109 Dated 9:18:58 05-22-91 -> 3125
From: BILL WELLS
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: OLD SILVER
I saw awhile back that you were in the neighbor dinning with Kent
Cummings (whom I have never had the pleasure of meeting) at about
the time I was leaving for Bluffton, Ohio. You know you and your
child bride would be welcome on the Virginia side of the river
anytime you can get over the bridge. As long as you can tolerate
kids running around you are certainly welcome at the house
anytime as well.
I hope you don't think I am abandoning you guys, I have just been
very busy the last week with boy scout camp out, getting the old
house ready for settlement at the end of the month, and even
working a magic gig over at a 1669 plantation near Easton for a
party of folks.
I also hope I didn't screw up anyone's schedules by suggesting to
El Petro that the two of them arrive a day earlier. Their
arrival late on the 26th basically gave them one full day to do
anything and I have seen how well Californians function on their
first day of arrival on the East Coast. At least we will have a
couple of days to work with if they get in late on the 25th.
Becki and I will probably have to drive on up to Baltimore
following whatever festivities we might have on the 27th, since
we have to have everything ready for registration to open at 3 pm
on the 28th and also be there for meetings with the hotel staff
on the morning of the 28th.
If you are in hunt of modeling stuff, then two of the area's
better modeling stores that I know of are in Virginia. Arlington
Hobby Crafters over at Wilston Center on Route 50 (Behind 7
Corners), and Cornish & Sons on Duke Street I 395. There is also
a smaller Hobby Shop in Reston. D.C. seems surprising devoid of
good model shops for some reason. You might also do as well or
better at an artist supply store named Pearl's over on Telegraph
Road near the Huntington Metro Stop. It is a big store with lots
of Dremel stuff and is the place where Becki got the airbush she
recently gave me for my birthday.
Msg #3111 Dated 9:20:08 05-22-91 -> 3124
From: BILL WELLS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC REVIEW
The O.P.C.C.!! Are you sure that isn't the title of CyberPunk
SciFi novel? At least there must be a story there someplace.
Too bad you didn't have a garage and a box of electronic parts 11
years ago...however, you would have probably named it the Orange
instead of the other fruit.
That ectoderm would probably still be in the soup (but thinking
about getting out!) if there hadn't been sufficient Mesoderm to
do the crawling.
Msg #3114 Dated 9:21:50 05-22-91
From: BILL WELLS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC! AT IBM
Oh...I remember to forget which even my computer might not be able to
do!!!
Msg #3116 Dated 10:31:00 05-22-91 3081 <--> 3182
From: JERRY BURTON
To: DOUGLAS LARSON (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
No problem - things happen. Which routine did you get the flash
on Okito or Buddha ?
.
Two solid hours of close-up is enough to put anyone to sleep,
some people don't know how long 8-10 minutes is !
Msg #3118 Dated 10:31:18 05-22-91 3015 <--> 3119
From: JERRY BURTON
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I find myself in a similiar position. I do a disappearing cig
and invariably when in a social setting, one of my friends will
drag someone over and say "Show fred the 5th dimension". Since I
smoke and what I do is magic all I should really need is a cig.
.
It's really an embarassment to both me and my friend if I can't
do the thing he has seen me do countless times before, has enjoyed,
and wants to share with his friend. I have only had to beg off
once, because I left my 'magic' at home, and I have vowed never to
let it happen again. I have built a (minor) reputation doing that
effect and I end up destroying it all, if I can't perform it when
asked. I got myself into that situation by doing it in the first
place, so now I have to always be prepared.
.
I have no qualms with those pros who find it insulting to be asked
to ply their trade for free, that's their choice. I'm on the
borderline, I'm trying to get my card into the hands of as many
potential clients as possible and hand-out 1000 dollar bills
where ever I can - who knows beforehand, who might want a magician
to entertain at their next function.
Msg #3119 Dated 10:31:33 05-22-91 3060 <--> 3120
From: JERRY BURTON
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Agreed - pick your shots for maximum impact.
Msg #3120 Dated 10:31:40 05-22-91 3061 <--> 3123
From: JERRY BURTON
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
This is the essence of my original point that just about anyone
can pose as a magician, by merely doing tricks and boring the
pants off anyone within their immediate vicinity.
.
The fact that they do it badly, makes it even worse. It's the Uncle
Geek syndrome (ref Burger's new book).
Msg #3122 Dated 11:39:10 05-22-91 3101 <-
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: LECTURE NOTES
I was gonna say "entertaining!"
But you said not to mention "entertaining!"
Msg #3123 Dated 11:43:31 05-22-91 3095 <--> 3129
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I STILL say that the secrets of magic...formerly so closely guarded...
are now TOO available to the casually curious public!!!
Msg #3124 Dated 11:44:29 05-22-91 3111 <--> 3150
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: BILL WELLS (X)
Re: MAGIC REVIEW
It drifts a bit off the topic of magic... but you did sorta ask
for it...
In 1970, while I was a graduate student at the University of So.
Florida, there was a blind student who lived in the dorms. He had
"perfect pitch," and was able to whistle in a manner that fooled
the phone system into placing free long distance calls. He was
caught, tried, and fined $1 (the headlines read something like "Ma
Bell vs. Blind Boy"). He later went on to get caught doing it
again in Oklahoma.
Along the way from Florida to Oklahoma he taught another fellow to
do it. Only the second guy could never get it quite right, so he
experimented with plastic whistles until he found the perfect one
- a premium in boxes of Capt'n Crunch cereal. Later, he perfected
an electronic box - the original "black box," and, later, the
"blue box," which did the whistling automatically.
He taught two students at Berkeley how to build and use these
boxes. They, in turn, turned it into a business - building the
boxes and holding evening seminars on how to use them. They came
close to being caught several times (Once, at a payphone, a
police officer insisted on examining the box. They told him it
was a prototype music synthesizer. After listening to the beeps
and squeaks, he said, "Sorry, guys, Moog beat you to it and did it
better").
Anyway, these two worked their way thru college building the boxes
and running the seminars. When they graduated they decided, based
on this experience, that they worked so well together that they
would go into business... Their names were Wozniak and Jobs. The
first programmer they hired went by the name of "Capt'n Crunch."
Captn' Crunch also wrote the first word processor (EasyWriter) for
something called the IBM-PC. However, when IBM discovered his
background they had the whole thing re-written by someone else.
What's in my garage? Even the Tabman never got back there. Among
other things, there is a Xerox 820 (yep, I really wanted to run
MAGIC! under CP/M, using 8-inch diskettes). There's also a
Honeywell 6-33 mini-computer, but that is a whole other story...
On the other matter... Yeah, but without ectoderm there would be no
place to put the mesoderm. Guess it's a case of "Which came first? The
Ecto or the Meso?"
Msg #3125 Dated 11:59:45 05-22-91 3109 <--> 3583
From: TABBY CRABB
To: BILL WELLS (X)
Re: OLD SILVER
Need some info: Stage size for the Jr. Ballroom; also
lighting requirements, number of microphones, size of audience. I
don't want to do too much; but just right. Will get room size
from hotel.
I'm wondering if this new development will make me have to
rethink my personal timeline so need a sked ASAP as I want to do
best job ever and live it in my dreams for awhile.
A Dremel tablesaw is what I need, plus some other model
making tools. Scott Davis cardbox is simply quite close to
perfection and this is the saw he used. He sent me the prototype
after burning out during the prototypicalling. I want to make
some of Rosewood calling it the Seance Card Box (after his great
magazine run of late). He will be BBQing with us. He has a new
wave slate that he has prototype on also. A great inventor. Paul
Osborne gave Scott two pages in Illusion Systems III. Totally
invisible joinery in Walnut. Wow!
Had a pleasant trip to west coast. Not too fast paced and
just enuff activity to stay interesting. When David Lichtman
pointed out how old hotel and mansion doors had been used for
wall covering in the various rooms at the Magic Castle, I went
nuts and started looking closely at them all. There was a hotel
in St. Paul that had great doors like that. I wanted to go tear
the hotel down to get them all.
Visits west are always pleasant with the Castle being the
focal point. It was great seeing both new and old friends. Being
paged by Max Maven and not hearing it was a surprise but that
just goes to show you how deeply the conversation had gotten
between Burt Carpenter, David Lichtman, Len Reid and myself. Len
is excellent at presenting old chessnuts with a different and
mysterious slant. I have been looking for someone to show me some
work on the spooky key for several years and hadn't had the
fortune to run into anybody interested in this idea til that
night.
Len was looking for ideas for a double whammy closer and we
were all trying to help. The guys from MAGIC! who showed up for
lunch on Friday was the best of all. I stasched (actually someone
else did the dirty work) one of my counterfeit Houdini 1c
postcards (cancelled 1926) in the billet box which was glued to
the table looking to give the finder a tingle and hope it got the
desired effect. There are only six of these cards in existance
with me just using the last one. They are a pain to make and
finding the proper antique US Postal cards in unused condition is
also difficult from here, so, if you've got one use it, you won't
be running into yourself. It only impacts magic historians
and Houdini buffs however, so you have a small potential
audience. I make this statement now that they are all out to
establish the fact that I am the originator of this idea and the
doer of this deed.
This is not the first hoax I have dealt to the magic
community, though from my isolated viewpoint I never heard if the
effects were achieved. Once some kids in Georgia carved some
ancient hydroglyphfs on some stones and had the state bone
diggers out in the field digging for glory. They inspired me
toward hoax which is of course why I'm most attracted to
magicians and other hidden edge types. The magicians are the most
fun since their hoaxes are all aimed at entertainment which is
the next foundation after the primal needs are met.
I learned a great lesson from a 21 dealer in Vegas too. I
heard her tell somebody to "never gamble with scared money" which
had an important impact on my game when I was 1100 down; "Gamble
with smart money instead", so I sent my cash to Wharton.
Msg #3128 Dated 12:28:50 05-22-91 3057 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: AGE BEFORE BEAUTY
If I was smarter than you, I wouldn't have needed to look at my
driver's license to figure out how old I was. Er, wait a minute... On
second thought, I take that back.
Msg #3129 Dated 12:31:26 05-22-91 3104 <--> 3133
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: JIM SISTI (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I really don't think it is the amateurs who are as much of a problem as
it is the poor professionals. Remember, to be a "professional" one
does not have to be good, one merely has to charge for performing.
There are a LOT of professionals out there who have put their act
together from magic store props. They aren't thinkers, they aren't
learners, they just go out and do bad magic night after night. People
will excuse "Uncle Harry," the amateur who inflicts bad magic on them,
because they know he isn't supposed to be too good. He's boring, he's
sloppy, but he's their uncle. But when they go to a party and see bad
stuff performed by a "professional," they lower their expectations of
the field.
Burger's comment in Magic Menu is interesting. But I think it belies
his connection with amateurs. He makes a very nice living off of them!
If he is truly interested in laymen, he would never write another book,
never give another lecture - he'd devote all his time to marketing
himself to lay audiences. Truth is, as a creative, passionate, shall
I say "amative," magician he has MORE in common with "amateurs" than he
has with many of his "professional" colleagues.
P.S. - When are you going to encourage him to join us here on MAGIC!?
He belongs here!
Msg #3130 Dated 12:43:26 05-22-91 3067 <--> 3177
From: MARVIN STERN
To: BURT CARPENTER (X)
Re: THE END IS HERE
Bruce who? Can't stand him, but his wife is nice.
Only kidding, about Bruce, not his wife.
BRUCE = see you Fri?
Msg #3133 Dated 12:57:24 05-22-91 3094 <--> 3135
From: EVAN KATZ
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
What's your point? That amateur magicians don't know what they're
doing or that there aren't _enough_ of them?
Msg #3135 Dated 12:59:03 05-22-91 3103 <--> 3138
From: EVAN KATZ
To: JIM SISTI (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Wrong, Jim. It's not the amateurs who obsessively search for effects
to fool fellow mag! Amateurs want to entertain friends and maybe
colleagues, but their skill level by definition is not at a level to
fool other magi too well. And if it is that high, then how amateurish
can they be?
I'm not blaming you specifically, but there's been a lot of mud slung
against amateurs lately. This slinging is born of ill-advised
snobbery and flies in the face of history. Some of the greatest
contributions, if not MOST, have been made by amateurs. Amateurs have
kept the art ALIVE all these years, while the majority of professionals
was keeping audiences away by refusing the change with the times, or
stop condescending!
Re Penn & Teller -- you miss my point and misunderstood my use of the
word pedestrian. They play to the common man, that is the secret of
their success, and that is why I used the word pedestrian in reference
to them. Not that they are "ordinary of dull," as Websters would have
us believe the word is used, but that they present themselves as
"Common." And, by the by, I was not insulting them, but praising. Not
that I like a lot of what they do, but they're on to a few things the
rest of us aren't.
Msg #3137 Dated 13:29:49 05-22-91 -> 3142
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: ALL
Re: CALL WAITING
Evan Katz pointed something out to me. Some calls to MAGIC! get
interrupted by call waiting. Here you are, reading messages and boom!,
you are thrown off the line!
There may be some ways to stop this from happening. Check with your
local phone company - some of them offer a "call waiting off" service
that allows you to disable call waiting for one call at a time.
A variety of telephone commands are used by different phone companies.
Usually accessed from your telephone keypad, these may be *70, 70#, or,
in the case of "pulse" telephones, 1170.
Once you determine that there is a command, you may be able to build it
right into your communications software along with MAGIC!'s number.
That way, your call waiting can be disabled automatically when you
access MAGIC!
Msg #3138 Dated 14:39:11 05-22-91 3123 <--> 3139
From: PETE BIRO
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Probably. But only moments ago I had a Swiss Journalist (he just flew
in to cover the Indy 500) ask me how he could learn to produce a dove.
I had just asked him how I could get from Zurich to Lausanne for the
Magic Congress being held there. He told me about a train from the
Airport! Anyway, he said, "could a normal person learn to do this?" I
told him if he went to a magic shop with the MONEY he could buy any
trick and learn it. He said "Could I learn it in, say SIX MONTHS?" I
told him most magicians in USA want to learn it ovenight. He could not
understand that thinking. He works for a major newspaper in Switzerland
and said he might like to come to the FISM and do a story for his
paper. I told him to look for me if he gets there.
Msg #3139 Dated 14:42:35 05-22-91 3133 <--> 3140
From: PETE BIRO
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
NO, not just amateurs... there are a LOT of people out there that are
INTO magic, and think that because they own a trick and know how it
works that they can present it. And there are some who call themselves
professionals in the same fix. Also, the vast majority of local club
members do not really have access and/or knowledge about the really
good material. They don't study the right stuff/people and they don't
have the ability OR TIME to give it proper study. It is this group that
those that do bad stuff comes from. Not all of them, but a lot of them
should stick to study, being a fan, and doing the little bits here and
there for their friends and family AND OTHER MAGI at meetings.
It is a good outlet. Many go to magic club meetings to get out of the
house, away from a surly wife, noisy kids.... you name it.
After all, most magicians are weird in their personal make up... need
to be approved, have to crave attention, etc. etc.
Msg #3140 Dated 14:46:33 05-22-91 3135 <--> 3151
From: PETE BIRO
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Fred Kaps was the only magician I ever met that was BOTH a professional
and an amateur at the same time. As he always said, 'THINK ABOUT IT'!!
Msg #3142 Dated 14:54:25 05-22-91 3137 <--> 3146
From: PETE BIRO
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
Call waiting sucks. The person you are talking to is the priority. If
someone calls and you are talking to someone the busy signal is what
the caller deserves! MY OPINION!
Msg #3145 Dated 16:28:35 05-22-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: ALL
Re: COMPUTER KOAN
If you are using a 38,400 baud modem with an XT machine, you can't run
more than a couple of TSR's at the same time.
Msg #3146 Dated 16:58:31 05-22-91 3142 <--> 3147
From: MARVIN STERN
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
The start of another long thread???
Msg #3147 Dated 17:00:08 05-22-91 3146 <--> 3156
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
One would hope not! Unless you know some great magic trick that can
be done with call waiting.
Msg #3148 Dated 17:00:56 05-22-91 -> 3169
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: ALL
Re: MAGIC-26
The twenty-sixth set of MAGIC! messages - #2500 (May 15, 1991) to
#2999 (May 21, 1991) - has been transferred to a downloadable
file. The file is named MAGIC-26.TXT. This means that you can
now go to the file area, download this file, and read the twenty-
sixth volume of messages off-line. For those who know how to
use the PKUNZIP system for uncompressing files, there is a
compressed version of this same file. It is called MAGIC-26.ZIP
and is less than 1/2 the size of the full-text version.
Not only will transferring these messages to a file make it easier
for you to obtain a complete set of them, but it will make the
search for new messages easier and faster.
Msg #3149 Dated 17:17:23 05-22-91 3096 <--> 3235
From: MAX MAVEN
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: DECK
I don't have an address for Marvin's Magic at hand, but they advertised
the poster in "Abra" when it was released a couple of months back. If
you've got a contact in London you could ask them to buy you one at
Hamley's, where I hear they're available.
Msg #3150 Dated 17:21:17 05-22-91 3124 <--> 3163
From: MAX MAVEN
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC REVIEW
Crunch is still around, but reportedly into an entirely different area
of endeavor.
Msg #3151 Dated 17:22:29 05-22-91 3123 <--> 3152
From: MAX MAVEN
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Technical secrets are indeed too available; real secrets are still
relatively tight.
Msg #3152 Dated 17:23:23 05-22-91 3135 <--> 3153
From: MAX MAVEN
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I have heard the comment before suggesting that most of the valuable
contributions to magic have been made by amateurs. Really? I would be
most interested to find how you back up this statement.
Msg #3153 Dated 17:22:08 05-22-91 3139 <--> 3154
From: EVAN KATZ
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Knowing how a trick works and owning means you CAN present it -- at
least on the most basic level. And yes, I agree the pros and amteurs
alike screw up effects. So what you're really saying is there are too
many BAD magi out there, regardless of professional status. To this
I will have to agree, but just don't think it's a relevant point.
There are bad artists of all kinds and always will be. The heat of
this discussion, however, has to do I think with a certain
possessiveness on the part of pros or semi-pros when it comes to
SECRETS. They/you just don't want to accept that it's no less
appropriate for an amateur to participate in his or her way than it is
for a professional to do the same!
Msg #3154 Dated 17:25:15 05-22-91 3152 <--> 3167
From: EVAN KATZ
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
You know a heck of a lot more about magic than I do, Max, so let me tun
a few things by you, and thumb me up or down on it. I believe that
Ramsey was a grocer, correct? Didn't Zarrow and Carlyle make their
money from other things? Doesn't John O'bannon and Simon Aaronson have
other careers? Houw about Jacob Daley, S. Leo Horowitz, John Scarne
(make his real living as a gamlbing expert, right)and how about
Elmsley? Wasn't he a pro for a very short period of his life? Or was
he only semi-pro? (exuse spelling of names throughout)
I only make this point, I'm sure you realize, because I think the
discussion has transcended from "there are too many bad magicians" to
"there are too many amateur magicians." To suggest that keeping a
tighter lock on effects and their availability would inspire greater
magicians is ludicrous on its fac It's sort of a men's club fantasy
where you're on the admitting committee and let only people you really
like in, who show the proper deference.
And to blame bad performers for magic state in general is a cop out as
well.
Anyway, I'm not interested in a tit-for-tat argument on how many pros
and non-pros contributed what. You know my basic point, that the
contributions of amateurs has been essential, is correct.
Msg #3155 Dated 17:24:32 05-22-91 -> 3158
From: MAX MAVEN
To: ALL
Re: AMATEURS
Before my earlier comments succeed in convincing everyone that I have
a grudge against amateurs, I should offer some further input.
First of all, I'm well aware of the Latin roots to the word. However,
loving something does not in and of itself mean that you will treat
that something well. Spouse-beating is ample evidence of the opposite
side of that coin.
I do not have anything against amateurs. I _do_ have something against
bad magicians. The percentage of professionals who are capable of doing
quality work is quite small. The percentage of amateurs doing good
magic is even smaller. This is based on simple Darwinian Selection: the
bad pro is more likely to get weeded out of the "gene pool" by the fact
that his/her performing yields negative returns. Not so the bad
amateur, whose work may find support from friends, family, and members
at the local magic club.
Of course, as it is often noted, every professional began as an
amateur. This is true -- but so what? When I discuss magic I prefer to
concentrate on frogs, not tadpoles.
There is a semantic bind here. Despite the tendency of so many to
presume that there is no real difference between an amateur and a pro
(when, in fact, there are some significant differences), most of what
is under discussion has little to do with that distinction. Rather,
it's a distinction between those who understand magic, and those who
don't.
I am not, therefore, putting down amateurs. Mine is the classic liberal
position: "Some of my best friends are amateurs."
Msg #3156 Dated 17:33:17 05-22-91 3142 <--> 3160
From: EVAN KATZ
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
Pete--
What are you TALKING about? There's nothing wrong with call wait...
Oh, can you excuse me for a sec? Some needs to talk to me--
Msg #3158 Dated 17:36:11 05-22-91 3155 <--> 3171
From: EVAN KATZ
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: AMATEURS
Isn't grousing against bad magicians gilding an obvious lily?
Msg #3159 Dated 17:38:28 05-22-91 -> 3174
From: MARVIN STERN
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: POSTER
I leave for London July 4 for a trade show. Afterwards gone for two
weeks and then back in London. Perhaps, if need be, if you promise
never to jump on any of my messages, I can pick up the poster for you.
If nothing else works out let me have the information.
Msg #3160 Dated 17:41:11 05-22-91 3156 <--> 3168
From: MARVIN STERN
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
Evan: Wish Iwould have thought of that answer. Did you get the $2?
Msg #3163 Dated 18:41:22 05-22-91 3150 <--> 3176
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC REVIEW
Kinda figured he was. Haven't seen him lately. Do you know what he is
up to?
Msg #3165 Dated 18:56:15 05-22-91
From: RANDY LUND
To: ALL
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I have been reading the messages for several nights now on this ubject
and now I wish to add a few points of my own.
.
There are no real secrets to magic. If I want to spend the time and
money I can find out the mechanical and technical details of just about
any trick or with a video of it I could reverse engineer to get the
same effect. The "real secret" is right under everybodys nose. HARD
WORK.....hard work learning to perfect a trick AND hard work learning
to entertain with it. No secret just work in from of a mirror, video
etc., testing in front of a live audience, then more work.
.
In an earlier message I comments on the use of camera club members for
photography. There are many parallels between PSA (Photgraphic Society
of America) members and IBM or SAM members. One comment is the trick
for the magi syndrome, camera clubs share that inward look and are
constantly more interested in the minor points of technique to the
exclusion of creativity. As true amateurs they, like amateur magi love
their craft, but they will never and many can never advance beyond that
point.
.
THere have been several comments that in essence say magic hasn't
progressed very far in the last 50 years or so. By and large true. I
just bought a new trick at Abbotts said to be the latest and greatest
from the mind of XXXX XXXXXXXXX. A couple of nights later I found the
very same trick by another name in Tarbell. A tape I just got in fact
recommends searching the old literature for effects that can be used
now. I am not sure whether there is little new under the sun or what.
.
We need more Michael Ammar's doing the teaching. In watching his tapes
especially we have picked up many pointers that deal with audience
perception and the philosophy of performing that I haven't found in
half a dozen other tapes or any other books. See comment 1 about hard
work. Learning a move is childs play compared to learning and
effectively using this stuff, but if you want to be good you have to do
it and with few exceptions it isn't being taught.
.
Randy Lund
Msg #3167 Dated 19:37:01 05-22-91 3129 <--> 3170
From: JIM SISTI
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Actually, yes. . .I must agree with you on that point. Kamaar is
supposedly a professional, yet he is the stereotypical polyester
performer. Regarding Burger though. . .his first lecture tours were
poorly received because he insisted on talking theory rather than
showing tricks. Perhaps the problem is not the amateurs. . .the
probelm might be the "trick junkies."
Msg #3168 Dated 20:18:11 05-22-91 3146 <--> 3173
From: TABBY CRABB
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
Or a long wait!!
Msg #3169 Dated 20:18:20 05-22-91 3148 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC-26
This is a rdmagic test.
Msg #3170 Dated 20:18:26 05-22-91 3152 <--> 3185
From: TABBY CRABB
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
It has been a while, but wasn't Angelo Lewis an amateur? Erdnase?
I have heard this too and don't know what the answer is, but am
interested.
Msg #3171 Dated 20:18:36 05-22-91 3155 <--> 3172
From: TABBY CRABB
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: AMATEURS
That's good, "Frogs, not tadpoles!"
Msg #3172 Dated 20:18:43 05-22-91 3155 <--> 3584
From: TABBY CRABB
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: AMATEURS
That's good too, since some of my best friends are professionals.
Msg #3173 Dated 20:18:50 05-22-91 3156 <--> 3189
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
I dislike call waiting and again think it's another case of frogs
and tadpoles. Usually whenever I get caught by someone's call-waiting
I hang up. When they call me back I tell them I was beeped and had to
call in while I was on hold and give them my other number in case it
ever happens again.
Msg #3174 Dated 20:19:04 05-22-91 3159 <--> 3239
From: TABBY CRABB
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: POSTER
Marvin, get two if you can. Would like to have one for the card room.
Msg #3176 Dated 20:19:25 05-22-91 3163 <--> 3197
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC REVIEW
Working with imp right now and thought I'd give you a shout. HEY!!
Msg #3177 Dated 20:22:01 05-22-91
From: TABBY CRABB
To: BRUCE SANDERCOCK (X)
Re: THE END IS HERE
Bruce,
I am trying RDMAGIC for the first time and you just happen to be
the goat; hope you don't mind. This program is the next step in
the evolution of MAGIC!. So far it's very good but I hope he can put
wordwrap on this reply processor. I would like to see a little imp
somewhere on the screen too even if it was IMP! I'm gonna pop a
couple of other replies on here and go up with it.
Msg #3178 Dated 20:22:21 05-22-91
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: NO LUNCH
You were getting me going on the Steinmeyer-Okito Box though!
Msg #3179 Dated 20:22:28 05-22-91 -> 3190
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: ORIGAMI
You are getting old. I tipped you at the Castle in the Professor's
fave hangout area.
Msg #3180 Dated 20:22:39 05-22-91 -> 3210
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID VANVRANKEN (X)
Re: MAGIC TRADING CARDS
Ok, let me know what I can do.
Msg #3181 Dated 20:22:46 05-22-91 2985 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: STEVE KUCERA (X)
Re: COSTUMES
Steve,
You are part of a RDMAGIC! test, hope you enjoyed it as much as
I have.
Msg #3182 Dated 20:22:58 05-22-91 -> 3183
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
Burton,
You're up to your new tricks with this program. It is light years
ahead. I'm just getting into it but wanted to say hey while I'm in
here. How much trouble would it fbe to put wordwrap in the text pro-
cessor? I'm outa here, but am using it now. Thanks for the copy!!
Msg #3183 Dated 20:23:13 05-22-91 -> 3191
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
Hey,
it. Was that before or after they kicked you out?
Msg #3184 Dated 20:23:23 05-22-91 -> 3285
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGICIAN'S ASSISTANT
He did a fine job don't you think. Believable is the word I'm looking
for. Do you need my mail address?
Msg #3185 Dated 20:25:16 05-22-91 3129 <--> 3186
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
What gets me is the amount of time spent trying to figure out what's
wrong with Magic... My goals have always been to learn from the
weaknesses and build on the strengths. I feel that since there is a
committee devoted to finding the ills of magic, that one be appointed
and directed toward cataloging magic's strengths. The fact that is
attracts talented people from all walks of life is one of the main
strenths. What is this common bond and how do we use it? Also this my
second test of rdmagic. I wish now for wordwrap but this is nice.
Thanks Burton.
Msg #3186 Dated 20:25:36 05-22-91 3135 <--> 3187
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
You have a point. Look at Hoffmann, Stewart James, etc. Even Jack
Gwynne and most others come from the ranks of amateurs (no pun on
amateur intended). Fortunately I don't know anyone who doesn't like
magic. I guess I'm lucky.
Msg #3187 Dated 20:25:46 05-22-91 3138 <--> 3188
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Blackstone produced a live white rat on yesterday's program with
Penn and Teller. Did you see it? Harry is a great ambassador.
Msg #3188 Dated 20:25:55 05-22-91 3140 <--> 3198
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Some guys I know are like that too. A number of the contemporary
pros are also passionate hobbiests. Which is first in their hearts?
I suspect that the true definition of amateur applies here. I'm
building a blackjack table from a layout which was a Xmas gift from
a friend. I'm interested in 21 as both an amateur afficianado and
as a way of getting money. The affinity for the game enables me to
win, but the winning player must draw from the love of the game to
rise to the top. Is there a correlation here? I think so. What breaks
the professional from much of the amateur ranks is that most real
pros I know draw from a deep well of both knowledge, history and
understanding. I consider myself a professional not only because a
dollar is made, but because I deeply love the entire art. I don't
consider myself a professional magician, but a professional magic
devotee; no longer a dilettante, but a journeyman.
-
Perhaps amateurs are the problem and perhaps they're the solution.
Occasionally you meet someone with no validity whatsoever, but for
the most part there are a lot of great people involved from both
sides of the creek. Jerks are easy to handle, idiots being somewhat
more difficult. With some exceptions (and you know who you are) most
of the magic I see is uninspiring. But in each trick some of the per-
sonality of the performer comes out and you can catch a glimpse some
place of the real person. What is this but drivel!!!! I'm testing
RDMAGIC! right now and was just spouting off. Hhaaarrrrrrdly, har;
Hhar.
Msg #3189 Dated 20:26:35 05-22-91 3142 <--> 3201
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
I don't have it and hang up usually. They think they did something
wrong and call back and appologize. I tell em a call came in on my
call-waiting and I had to take it. BTW I picked up a lottery wheel
program for my PC while I was in Pamona for the Cherry Blossum
Festical and just won 5000 on the pick 6. I'm gonna try it a few
weeks and then run the big California Modulator which wheels 30 of
the 49 numbers. A better than 50% chance of hitting the second prize
14 times. Of course luck plays the closest hand and you never know
what cards (unless you're Gary Plants or Darwin Ortiz) you're gonna
dealt. And they don't know either when you play against lady luck.
Wheeeew! RDMAGIC! test complete. Ta de tah!
Msg #3190 Dated 20:37:49 05-22-91 3179 <--> 3216
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: ORIGAMI
Really!!! I could have sworn I remembered reading it here on MAGIC!
Could see the message in my mind, just couldn't find it. That's funny!
I guess now I'm reading life!
Msg #3191 Dated 20:38:54 05-22-91 3182 <--> 3283
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
Jerry -
Don't know if it would help, but I have the old TurboPascal Editor
package around here. It allows you to create a text editor.
Msg #3194 Dated 21:35:27 05-22-91 -> 3266
From: BRUCE SANDERCOCK
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: FRIDAY LUNCH
Sorry to disappoint you Marvin, but I head out of town tomorrow for 10
day trip. Arrive back on Sunday 2nd, noon, in time to get readyy
for the Annual banquet. Audrey's the greatest too!
Msg #3197 Dated 23:14:13 05-22-91 3163 <--> 3200
From: MAX MAVEN
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC REVIEW
I understand he is now involved with politics -- specifically as a gay
activist in the bay area.
Msg #3198 Dated 23:15:42 05-22-91 3154 <--> 3199
From: MAX MAVEN
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
The names you mention are those of fine magicians who (with the
exception of Scarne) were indeed non-professionals. However, I think we
probably aren't in synch as to what constitutes the definition of a
valuable contribution to the art of magic.
Herb Zarrow, for example, is a wonderful guy who invented a lovely
new concept in false shuffling which is a fine addition to the
technical area. But his ideas have not made any real change in the
development of the art.
The ones who do that are primarily professionals of one sort or
another. I'm talking about people like Leipzig, Keating, Cardini, and
so on -- people who actually introduced new _approaches_ which in turn
influenced the evolution of magic as a whole.
And, most of the notable amateurs who fit this category were, at
some point, professionals. Dai Vernon is a fine example. The fact that
he stopped his pro career early doesn't mean he suddenly forgot what
he'd learned from the experience.
Msg #3199 Dated 23:22:58 05-22-91 3154 <--> 3206
From: MAX MAVEN
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
(continued)
As to the subject of keeping a tighter lock on secrets, you might
consider the idea that if the information were a bit more difficult to
come by, those who obtain it would value it more, and therefore behave
accordingly.
This has nothing to do with your image of a private club's admitting
committee based upon social likes and dislikes. There are indeed
private networks within magic which are not easily entered, in which
certain information is kept exclusive -- not everything is put into
print. But "admittance" is based upon other things than "show[ing] the
proper deference."
Blaming bad performers for the state of magic is hardly a cop-out.
Bad performers most certainly do drag down the art. They hurt something
I dearly love, and I will lay blame where it is deserved.
Msg #3200 Dated 23:32:29 05-22-91 3197 <--> 3582
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC REVIEW
Interesting! Most of the early founders of personal computing have
wandered off to different shores. Many are in robotics, few remain in
computing.
Msg #3201 Dated 0:06:36 05-23-91 3160 <--> 3202
From: EVAN KATZ
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
Got the two bucks. Never heard of a check arriving C.O.D., though.
Msg #3202 Dated 0:07:16 05-23-91 3173 <--> 3203
From: EVAN KATZ
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
The ettiquette (sp.) is supposed to be that you kick your first caller
off right away and bet back to the person who beeped in. I say "au
contraire." I think you tell the person who beeped in that it's your
lawyer or mother on the other line, and they won't be insulted. Then
you can call them back.
Call waiting's not great. But doesn't everyone remember trying to
reach someone and getting that BUSY SIGNAL for what seemed like
FOREVER?
Msg #3203 Dated 0:09:26 05-23-91 3202 <--> 3204
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
The only place I have call waiting is in my car. And even there I'm
thinking of getting a second line.
Msg #3204 Dated 0:15:06 05-23-91 3203 <--> 3205
From: EVAN KATZ
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
I heard of someone who has an answering machine in his car. Perhaps so
he can screen his calls?
Msg #3205 Dated 0:15:34 05-23-91 3204 <--> 3212
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
I have often thought of that - particularly once when I had a
conference call going, the call waiting beeped, and my pager went off
- ALL at the SAME TIME. But the answering machine in the car seems to
interfere with the fax machine. I really need the second line for
computer calls. "Stuck on the freeway? Call MAGIC! and relax!"
Msg #3206 Dated 0:20:37 05-23-91 3129 <--> 3207
From: T A WATERS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
But -- Eugene makes that part of his living by TALKING to amateurs --
not LISTENING to them. If you are a professional at anything, you
listen to those you can learn from, not (for the most part) from those
you teach.
Msg #3207 Dated 0:34:57 05-23-91 3206 <--> 3208
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: T A WATERS
Re: MAGIC AS ART
And who does he (Eugene Burger) listen to?
Msg #3208 Dated 0:34:48 05-23-91 3154 <--> 3209
From: T A WATERS
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Although Max Maven has already responded to this, I feel compelled to
add a few observations. (Oh, and if by Carlyle you meant Francis
Carlyle -- he was a pro closeup worker of distinction for many years.
It is true that much of the work currently being published is by
amateurs -- but it is also true that the great bulk of it ends up being
FOR amateurs. All this creativity can be fascinating, but it is a very
thin cream off the top that ever moves into the acts of professionals.
Note too that most of this creativity is in the area of tricks rather
than presentation -- and as I gaze around the Castle Library I am not
completely convinced that what magic really needs is more tricks.
Point is, amateurs in any field are fine, and should be encouraged to
do their best -- but magic is a PERFORMANCE art, and if one is going to
perform at all they owe it to their audience, paying or not, to be as
good as they can possibly be; this does not usually mean having the
latest variation on Oil And Water. What it does mean is learning
performance skills -- something that amateurs tend to resist. A pro
will treasure an idea for a take or a line more than a hundred tricks,
because that helps his or her performance -- and to the pro, that is
what's important.
The above is, of course, generalization -- and my opinion -- but I do
think it has some validity.
Msg #3209 Dated 1:46:43 05-23-91 3206 <--> 3232
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Geeez, T A. I taught mentally retarded kids for two years and I
learned a GREAT DEAL from them.
Msg #3210 Dated 2:10:41 05-23-91 3180 <--> 3219
From: DAVID VANVRANKEN
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC TRADING CARDS
First, I need to find addresses of major performers to send a proposal
to. I'm compiling a "wish list" of people I'd like to see on the set.
Any addresses or ideas of contacts or agents would be appreciated. I'm
also wondering about the legalities of using past (dead) performers.
Who do I go to? Or do I even have to? I know somebody on this board has
some legal experience that might help.
Until I get photos, or at least addresses, this project might go on
"hold" for some time.
Thanks,
David
Msg #3212 Dated 2:19:14 05-23-91 3204 <--> 3218
From: DAVID VANVRANKEN
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
What does it say? "I'm sorry, I'm home now. I call you when I'm out"?
Msg #3213 Dated 5:53:21 05-23-91 -> 3220
From: CHARLIE RANDALL
To: DAVID LUTHER (X)
Re: NEW BOOKS
Richard asked me to drop you a note: yes, regarding the new Steinmeyer
book _Howard Thurston's Illusion Show Work Book_. Call or drop a note
for more details. We saw some of the material at the Collectors'
Weekend -- looks like it will be one of the books of the year.
Richard also felt you might be particularly interested in the following
new books of note that we are carrying or have on order and will carry
as soon as they are published in the next month or two: _Device and
Illusion_ (Steinmeyer), _The Man Who Was Erdnase_ (Busby, Gardner, and
Whaley), _The Annotated Erdnase_ (Ortiz), _Dante_ (Temple), _Strange
Ceromonies_ (Burger), _Lifesavers_ (Weber), and _Road Hustler_ (Kaufman
reprint).
Charlie
Msg #3215 Dated 5:54:28 05-23-91 -> 3320
From: CHARLIE RANDALL
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: LIBRARY
T A, what's the status of the Castle library? I'm going to be in LA
the first week of June and would love to see the new library. Thanks.
Charlie
Msg #3216 Dated 6:53:54 05-23-91 3190 <--> 3221
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: ORIGAMI
Reading life is the ultimate!!
Msg #3218 Dated 6:54:05 05-23-91 3202 <--> 3234
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
Hey Evan, my Mom's lawyer is on the other terminal, I'll get right
back to you.
Msg #3219 Dated 6:54:11 05-23-91 3210 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID VANVRANKEN (X)
Re: MAGIC TRADING CARDS
I guess you have "card waiting".
Msg #3220 Dated 6:54:16 05-23-91 3213 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: CHARLIE RANDALL (X)
Re: NEW BOOKS
Charlie, when will you be getting the new books from Magical Publi-
cations?? Lemme know.
Msg #3221 Dated 7:28:28 05-23-91 3216 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: ORIGAMI
You mean it beats the sportin' life?
Msg #3225 Dated 8:03:55 05-23-91 -> 3287
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: IMP
Burton The Bizarre:
Thanks for the phone help last night. Those settings didn't
work for me but they gave me a jumping off place and I
effectively uploaded three IMP files last night. This is great
and gives the remote user interaction with the system while being
off line.
I suspect that the program was written either in TurboPascal
or QuickBasic. What is it?
WordWrap on the text processor would be a welcome addition
plus the option of adding a "G" at the end for autohangup (which
is what I did by putting the impfile in my wordprocessor and
manually adding it).
Your automatic uploading has truly taken the Modem Commando
to new heights and I recommend it heartily, I'll be using it from
now on and look forward to the new version, etc in the mails.
Thanks for the tips on character pacing, etc. I suspect you
are using a faster microprocessor than the 8088 here in the
tabman's cpu but I have the transfer speed in the ballpark.
tabman the terminalizer
Msg #3227 Dated 8:21:15 05-23-91 3046 <--> 3242
From: BILL WELLS
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: NOTES TWO
Dear Mr. Biro -
I am still looking for the chairs which I vanished under item
7 of your lecture. Howsomever, you did not explain how to make
them reappear. They may be mixed up with item 10. Since I
wasn't among the first 40 I don't have a set of your notes to
check. The difficulty may be in that the tassle in MY pants does
not have a weight on it, therefore my pants leg has not, in
effect, become a big Chinese Stick (but then I am Caucasian).
Could it be that my stick is Histed?
Finally, the Sysop suggests that item 1 would be effective
for frogs to utilize in eating flies. Great energy savings and
reduction of tongue fatique could be realized if a bit of fly
paper was used on the end of the thread from the reel. The
amphibians of the world thank you! (also they agree croaking is
considerably more difficult).
Remind me to tell you about York/Kaps version and handling of
the Himber card box concept. The "electric razor" gag was one of
Scotty's ideas that Fred also used. If I can find the lecture
notes where Scotty explained this I will give 'em to you. BTW,
wait until I tell you about the gag York and Sheets are doing on
the show in Baltimore...GREAT!!
Thank you for your attention to these matters...oh, and
please forward items 4 through 44. I seem to be missing those
pages.
Magically yours,
The Amazing Grape !!
Msg #3228 Dated 8:22:09 05-23-91 3008 <--> 3245
From: BILL WELLS
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Dear Semi-pro Blackjack Player:
It is getting extremely difficult to know just exactly how to
address you. Rather than the King of the Mounds, you might
better be known as the Monarch of the Monikers.
Confusedly,
Nom-de-Pooped
ps - finally found an old form and your future is now in the
hands of the Postal Service.
pps- Personally, I liked Cotton Eyed Joe Dancer best.
Msg #3229 Dated 8:22:45 05-23-91 -> 3243
From: BILL WELLS
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: RESPONSE TO 2932
I note that you state "EVERYONE else is now using
Arrrrrggggghhhhh". That clearly is NOT the case at all. You are
using the 5-5-5 version which neither Charles Schutz nor I have
ever used. Evan Katz used AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH in message 2953 which
is obviously a much calmer and less frustrating version (Frankly,
I would consider it an improvement). Insofar as using "Har!",
thats like doing a box trick 'cause you are scared to try a
sleight.
ps- congrats on the raise! Can we look for another full page in
USA Today?
Msg #3230 Dated 8:23:41 05-23-91 -> 3246
From: BILL WELLS
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: COMMENT ON #2986
I beg your pardon! Biro uses raisins, egg cups, and kumquats. I
am the original Wells the Grape....and its coffee MUGS not cups.
Seriously, I think the point of all this "always be prepared"
discussion is that if you know your discipline (in this case,
magic) then you should be able to perform a magical effect under
just about any situation if the circumstances are conducive for
you to perform. I certainly don't agree with those who go out
armed with sponges balls, a deck of cards, and some rope "just in
case" someone might happen to mention the word magic and offer an
opportunity for them to seize an excuse to perform. Nor do I
agree that a magician should be expected to provide impromptu
entertainment without compensation at any social gathering. I do
feel that if anyone calls themselves a magician then they should
be knowledgeable enough to take advantage of what is currently
available to do something (My goodness, everyone at least has
coins in their pocket or bills in their wallets!). The act of
saying you only perform if properly compensated can be
effectively turned positive by magically printing the business
card you hand them as you tell them to contact your agent.
All this reminds me of an idea we have been batting around for
the DMS since I suggested it a few years ago. The idea is to
have a simple table setting as one would find in a restaurant.
Each contestant would enter and perform one or two effects with
the items available on the table. It would be impromptu and the
contestant would not know in advance what would be available.
This would not be the entire contest but rather one of two or
three phases in the contest. We originally discussed this as
part of the Complete Conjuror Contest.
Msg #3231 Dated 8:27:22 05-23-91 3045 <--> 3247
From: PHIL BENEDICTO
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
Thanks. I can finally give credit where it's due. My father was a big
Ed Sullivan fan. It all fits together now!
Msg #3232 Dated 8:15:06 05-23-91 3199 <--> 3233
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Blaming bad performers for the state of magic may not be a cop-out, but
I think it is a by-way. It is a rather convenient excuse for the
"state of magic."
And, as to admittance to the private networks not being based on social
likes and dislikes or "showing the proper deference," it would be
interesting to learn just what admittance is based on. I suspect that
there is a great deal more of politics and "private club" thinking than
you would like to admit.
But, in reality, that is neither here nor there. While I'm not sure
that the "state of magic" is quite as dismal as we've been painting it,
I think there are other factors, besides bad magic, that cry out for
investigation if we are to improve the public's perception of magic.
One such factor is access to the media. The dominant form of
entertainment is television. For a long time it was thought that magic
didn't play well on television. But Copperfield has had great success
with that medium, and, as you know, television magic is very popular in
Japan. So here are a couple of germaine questions: How can the
perception of the "television moguls" be changed to include magic? And
WHY is television magic (and magic in general) more popular in Japan?
Another factor - does magic continue to cater to the needs and desires
of the public? What is it that people crave (not simply "want") that
magic can deliver? Comedy currently seems to fill a niche quite
successfully by catering to the young and the sexually repressed. What
can magic offer?
I suspect that when we move from beating each other over the head and
decrying the lack of "good magic," it is these questions, or questions
very much like them, that are the real key to the expansion and growth
of magic.
Msg #3233 Dated 8:59:00 05-23-91 3151 <--> 3236
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
At the rate things are going, though, it's just a matter of time.
Msg #3234 Dated 9:07:52 05-23-91 3205 <--> 3256
From: PETE BIRO
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
Who startedthis call waiting BS STOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
Msg #3235 Dated 9:08:30 05-23-91 3149 <-
From: PETE BIRO
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: DECK
MAVEN-SAN, ARIGATO GOZIAMAS
Msg #3236 Dated 9:10:41 05-23-91 3185 <--> 3237
From: PETE BIRO
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MAGIC UNLESS YOU MAKE IT WRONG!
Msg #3237 Dated 9:11:12 05-23-91 3187 <--> 3248
From: PETE BIRO
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
NO TV HERE IN MY PRISON CELL. Did you hear about the Pro magician that
works as an amateur Doctor?
Msg #3239 Dated 9:15:23 05-23-91 3159 <--> 3240
From: PETE BIRO
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: POSTER
I promise I promise....
Msg #3240 Dated 9:15:38 05-23-91 3174 <--> 3255
From: PETE BIRO
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: POSTER
Me first
Msg #3242 Dated 9:19:03 05-23-91 3227 <-
From: PETE BIRO
To: BILL WELLS (X)
Re: NOTES TWO
Dear Sour Grape: I am still in prison at Indy... brain out o gear. But
will get some info to you tht will enhance your life beyond the scope
of the normal. Glad I am using someone elses phone line. Har.
Msg #3243 Dated 9:20:35 05-23-91 3229 <--> 3251
From: PETE BIRO
To: BILL WELLS (X)
Re: RESPONSE TO 2932
My snaps will appear in Friday (tomorrow) USA TODAY, full page.
Msg #3245 Dated 9:53:48 05-23-91 3228 <--> 3258
From: TABBY CRABB
To: BILL WELLS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Monarch-of-Monikers is quite good, may I use it on my card if I ever
have any made. Depending on which coast I'm on my friends either call
me "Youse" or "Dude." I prefer "Dude."
Msg #3246 Dated 9:53:55 05-23-91 3230 <--> 3288
From: TABBY CRABB
To: BILL WELLS (X)
Re: COMMENT ON #2986
That's a good idea.
Msg #3247 Dated 9:54:00 05-23-91 3231 <--> 3265
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PHIL BENEDICTO (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
I remember seeing it there too. Everybody in school was doing it the
next day.
Msg #3248 Dated 9:54:05 05-23-91 3232 <--> 3249
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
From my vantage point, tv has been pretty good to magic the past 2
decades. Maybe it's not what you're looking for, but there have been
two primetime series based on a magician as the protagonist. Both
The Magician and Black's Magic were entertaining with Black's Magic
being somewhat like a Clayton Rawson novel. I guess it depends upon
which side of the mountain you perspectivise from but magic looks to
be quite active with all forms of media jumping to utilize the latest
technologies. The trend seems to be for magicians to perform for each
other, so if this is the case then for magic as a performance art to
grow more dilettantes are necessary to feed the fire.
Msg #3249 Dated 9:54:19 05-23-91 3236 <--> 3250
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I didn't do it!
Msg #3250 Dated 9:54:24 05-23-91 3237 <--> 3253
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
No. Who was it?
Msg #3251 Dated 9:54:28 05-23-91 3243 <--> 3261
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: RESPONSE TO 2932
The weekend edition?
Msg #3252 Dated 9:54:38 05-23-91
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: IMP
This RDM is great, Jerry. Thanks for the copy. Great idea. It's much
more fun now since it is more interactive from a screen point of view.
Msg #3253 Dated 10:14:42 05-23-91 3248 <--> 3254
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Thanks. As you know, I haven't watched much television in the last two
decades. I let my VCR do it for me.
Msg #3254 Dated 11:08:52 05-23-91 3253 <--> 3259
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
See?
Msg #3255 Dated 12:05:00 05-23-91 3239 <--> 3262
From: MARVIN STERN
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: POSTER
Pete- I leave for London July 4 and ret Aug 8. Part of this time is
driving. How large and bulky is this poster - should say these two
posters? I don't know when I would be getting them, but I don't really
want to drag them around for weeks. I can probably leave them with a
friend and pick them up later, but that also is a pain. HOWEVER I
would do it for you and Tabby. I've enjoyed you guys on MAGIC, that is
when you are not on a soap box.
Another thought, I can have friends get them now and mail/ship them to
me.
What 'cha think?
Msg #3256 Dated 13:34:02 05-23-91 3234 <--> 3263
From: EVAN KATZ
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
Pete --
Re Mssg #3234, I think you have a sticky key problem with your "P."
Try cleaning the keyboard, or running a keyboard manager program, like
PCKEY (comes with PCKWIK Power Pak), to help get rid of those pesky
repeats.
--Evan
Msg #3258 Dated 13:51:42 05-23-91 3245 <--> 3291
From: PETE BIRO
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Mike Close has it on "Magic Dude" so hold that un.
Msg #3259 Dated 13:52:20 05-23-91 3248 <--> 3260
From: PETE BIRO
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Yeah, how many Cello shows been on TV, or Juggler's featured, not to
say Ventriloquists?
Msg #3260 Dated 13:53:00 05-23-91 3249 <--> 3282
From: PETE BIRO
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I know YOU didn't... but who did?
Msg #3261 Dated 13:53:31 05-23-91 3251 <--> 3294
From: PETE BIRO
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: RESPONSE TO 2932
I guess so, it is sold on Fri.
Msg #3262 Dated 13:54:08 05-23-91 3255 <--> 3267
From: PETE BIRO
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: POSTER
The EZ way.... you decide. Soap box? Just as long as it doesn't foam up
and we fall.....
\
Msg #3263 Dated 13:54:46 05-23-91 3256 <-
From: PETE BIRO
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: CALL WAITING
It is the humidity here and myfingers can hardly feel anything! Arrrggh
har? etc. et al.
Msg #3264 Dated 14:03:45 05-23-91 -> 3269
From: DREW SERNEKOS
To: ALL
Re: BICYCLE REVISTED
Well while I was at the National Stationery Show last Sunday I
stopped by The United States Playing Card Company's Booth and asked
Mal Anderson, the National Sales Manger, the now familiar question
"How can you tell a real deck of Bicycle cards?"
The deck should have a clear band with bicycle printed in red on it.
He handed me a deck and sure enough that's what it had. Also, you can
tell the year the deck was printed by the first letter of the lot
number on the Ace of Spades as follows: P = 91; O = 90 and so on.
Mr. Anderson also said they were currently having problems with both
counterfeits and reverse exports from Hungry.
* drew *
Hmmm... anybody interested in buying card's cheap?
Msg #3265 Dated 14:22:43 05-23-91 3247 <--> 3276
From: PHIL BENEDICTO
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
One word of caution, however. The gag should be routined into an act
or you may risk creating a mob scene of manic kids spastically throwing
invisible balls in the air. I know this from early experimentation,
particularly if performed after cake and ice cream (sugar load).
Msg #3266 Dated 15:01:50 05-23-91 3194 <-
From: MARVIN STERN
To: BRUCE SANDERCOCK
Re: FRIDAY LUNCH
You won't disappoint me if you're not there Friday. We'll then be able
to enjoy ourselves.
Msg #3267 Dated 16:24:49 05-23-91 3255 <--> 3270
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: POSTER
Have your friends fax 'em to 'em, Marvin.
Msg #3269 Dated 16:29:29 05-23-91 3264 <--> 3295
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: DREW SERNEKOS (X)
Re: BICYCLE REVISTED
Thanks - Looks like the info from Sales confirms the "insider" info we
had. The older decks have white bands that are lower down on the pack.
The clear band is new. If what we got is true, the ones from Hungry
MIGHT have RED bands - those were used for the exports to China.
Your P = 91 data is definitely new info - I could never get that out of
my informant. All he would say was that the "N" decks I had were
"recent." Come to think of it, they've never sent me the replacement
decks! Guess I'd better write to 'em or something.
Msg #3270 Dated 16:53:25 05-23-91 3267 <-
From: MARVIN STERN
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: POSTER
If we do that, someone will end up with a free lunch.
Msg #3276 Dated 18:59:27 05-23-91 2980 <--> 3277
From: SCOTT CRAM
To: RICHARD HART (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
Thanks alot! That will keep me busy!
Msg #3277 Dated 19:00:28 05-23-91 2998 <--> 3278
From: SCOTT CRAM
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
Not bad. I've used a topit before, but never thought about it for the
balls, Hmmmm ......
Msg #3278 Dated 19:02:00 05-23-91 3022 <--> 3279
From: SCOTT CRAM
To: PHIL BENEDICTO (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
The invisible bag idea sounds great. I read about it in an episode of
Genii sometime back, but still, that's a great idea. It sounds like you
could drive kids to the brink of insanity (For some, only a gentle
nudge). I'm gonna remember that one!
Msg #3279 Dated 19:04:39 05-23-91 3024 <--> 3280
From: SCOTT CRAM
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
Sounds good, but the commute would be hell for me. I live in Northern
CA, in the East Bay. Have you heard about anybody who meets in the San
Fran or Bay Area, as far as juggler's meetings?
Msg #3280 Dated 19:06:30 05-23-91 3075 <--> 3281
From: SCOTT CRAM
To: DANTE LARSEN (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
You wouldn't happen to remember the program that you saw this Joey Joey
guy on. Maybe It'll be shown up here sometime.
If you can't remember, oh well.
Msg #3281 Dated 19:35:50 05-23-91 3276 <--> 3296
From: RICHARD HART
To: SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
You're welcome. Some of the stuff in the books is quite dated, but if
you put "you" (hmmm, should that be: _you_, YOU, or ...?) into it,
it'll play well.
Msg #3282 Dated 19:40:31 05-23-91 3185 <--> 3289
From: JERRY BURTON
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
You want word wrap on each line - you got it, will let you know
when it done.
.
Anyone else want anything ?
Msg #3283 Dated 19:40:38 05-23-91 3191 <--> 3284
From: JERRY BURTON
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
The initial reply editor is a quick and dirty method that allows
you to enter 10 lines of text at a time and edit anything on the
screen as you go. I have to investigate using the text editor
functions that are a part of the Vitamin C package I'm using.
.
Word wrap can be handled, as well as automatic scolling, etc.
.
For now the reply portion allows entry of 60 char lines and beeps
at you at the end of each line. I just backspace over the partial
word at the end and then hit enter to go to the next line. Up
arrow allows moving up to a prior line for making corrections. I need
to add a line insert function as well.
.
Tabby - while you are doing a reply and want to see a part of the
underlying message - hit F2 and use up-arrow to move the reply
window to the top of the screen. In this way you can always 'see'
the message you are replying to.
.
I assume the changes you made PROCOMM solved the upload problem -
you seemed to have quite a few replies on tonight.
Msg #3284 Dated 19:40:49 05-23-91 3182 <--> 3300
From: JERRY BURTON
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
See my reply to David re the Pascal editor Msg 3191 ,eventually will
have a full blown text editor function in the reply mode. Check
out the F2 command for viewing underlying messages and let me know.
what you think. Sometimes I use my ASCII text editor to augmnet
messages - as I am doing right now. The primary use of the current
reply mode is to generate a file structure for easy uploading. It
is not very good for entering very large responses as you only get
to see 10 lines at a time.
.
Just received a new version of the window libraries I use, will
check them out tonight to see how the editor functions.
Msg #3285 Dated 19:40:58 05-23-91 3184 <--> 3302
From: JERRY BURTON
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGICIAN'S ASSISTANT
Yeah - he done good. I was convinced. I have your address you gave
it to me after Becky's show - check for UPS Monday - much mojo
coming your way.
5/23/91- UPS has the package, should arrive Monday. Use brass
instead of copper - I sent some, if you want to use it.
Msg #3287 Dated 19:41:11 05-23-91 3225 <--> 3303
From: JERRY BURTON
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: IMP
Its written in C. I could add an option to automatically add the G
at the end of the file, so that if you don't want to get off after
the upload it doesn't force you to.
.
If you are still having problems with the upload try using line
pacing, and increasing the character pacing.
.
I'll send you the latest version of Procomm 2.4.3 with the next
copy of IMP I send, and maybe that will help.
.
Starting to work tonight on a full-blown text editor for the reply
window.
.
Chao - Burton the Bizzare.
Msg #3288 Dated 19:41:19 05-23-91 3230 <--> 3308
From: JERRY BURTON
To: BILL WELLS (X)
Re: COMMENT ON #2986
I guess I have to confess that I'm one of those that is always
prepared to perform when asked. I'm an amateur magician (i.e. I
don't do magic full-time) because I can't afford to become
professional, but I do private parties and make
enough to support my magic habit.
.
I also have several haunts in Newport Beach that I'm known as
a magician and invariably someone will want me to show their
friend something, I do a bit and then hand out $ 1000 bills
(which is my card) and find that it is a good way to advertize.
.
Regarding the walk-up impromptu idea - it would certainly
measure a performer's improv ability as well as their overall
knowledge of magic. Would be really interesting to see it done.
Msg #3289 Dated 19:41:28 05-23-91 3206 <--> 3290
From: JERRY BURTON
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Egad - that sounds very elitist. You can learn from anyone if you
keep an open mind and listen. I have taught programing and always
learned from my students, they kept me from falling into the trap
of thinking I knew it all. One of the problems with magic may be
that the Pros only talk to the Pros, and that's why everyone is
going down similiar paths.
.
Burton the Bizarre.
Msg #3290 Dated 19:41:36 05-23-91 3208 <--> 3292
From: JERRY BURTON
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I absolutely agree, there are already enough tricks, what we need
is training in performance. Did you pick-up on my idea of a
Magical Arts Performance Workshop ?
.
The concept is to provide a means of teaching performance methods
for 'tricks' a person already knows. Bill Wells had an interesting
idea concerning an improv method for testing a magicians skills
in using props found on a table. This is pure performance. Vito
Lupo also mentioned a method he and his students used, i.e. giving
each person some items and they have 5 minutes to come-up with a
routine.
.
I also agree that many amateurs are adverse to thinking about
the theoretical aspects of magic. I have heard many complain
about a lecture, as "not enough explanation of 'tricks' ". I have
also heard lecturers apologize for being too philosophical, and
tend to minimize it.
.
One of the best lectures I have ever seen was at IBM San Diego by
Hiawatha Johnson. He did one trick, three different ways. The first
was straight out of the package with no persona what-so-ever. Next,
he did it as a Game Show Host, to show how to make a trick into an
effect. Finally he did it as a Dr. Strangelove type character, and
actually frightened the poor lady that was assisting him.
.
The point is, he was giving a lecture on character development
which is an important part of performance. It was terrific.
Unfortunately, I talked with several people who complained he
only showed one trick - they missed the entire point of the
lecture.
Msg #3291 Dated 20:23:44 05-23-91 3258 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Woah!
Msg #3292 Dated 20:23:49 05-23-91 3259 <--> 3293
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Candice's dad did have a way with dummies though, and The Great
Dunninger's radio show had everyone believing. Orsen Wells too!!
Msg #3293 Dated 20:23:54 05-23-91 3260 <--> 3299
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
The Mystery Magician?
Msg #3294 Dated 20:23:58 05-23-91 3261 <--> 3410
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: RESPONSE TO 2932
Comes in here at 2am.
Msg #3295 Dated 20:24:03 05-23-91 3264 <--> 3297
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DREW SERNEKOS (X)
Re: BICYCLE REVISTED
How cheap?
Msg #3296 Dated 20:24:08 05-23-91 3265 <--> 3309
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PHIL BENEDICTO (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
I kept missing the bag and breaking the invisible eggs I was tossing.
Msg #3297 Dated 20:24:12 05-23-91 3269 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: BICYCLE REVISTED
I've got some "E" decks. What year is that?
Msg #3299 Dated 20:24:22 05-23-91 3282 <--> 3304
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Word wrap would be great, Jerry; thanks. How about an option to add
a "G" at the end. I've been using IMP since Tuesday and I'm hooked.
This is actually easier than sitting at the master console.
Msg #3300 Dated 20:24:28 05-23-91 3283 <--> 3301
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
I'm playing with the ascii file transfer switch setting looking for
speed again, but am def in the ballpark. Swat!
Msg #3301 Dated 20:24:34 05-23-91 3284 <--> 3375
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
I had a C compiler on my hard drive when it crashed and the disks
were down the road by that time. I content myself to using QB 4.0
whenever I feel the need for something special. C, that's something
else.
Msg #3302 Dated 20:24:42 05-23-91 3285 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGICIAN'S ASSISTANT
Good to hear re:brass since I was at the metal shop looking around
today.
Msg #3303 Dated 20:24:47 05-23-91 3287 <--> 3411
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: IMP
Your dedication is astounding!
Msg #3304 Dated 20:51:06 05-23-91 3282 <--> 3306
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
How about a new Lincoln Town Car with JBL Compact Disk Stereo and two
cellular phones?
Seriously, need to "play" with it a bit more. Tab is now using it all
the time. I sign on mostly from a master console and can't use it on
the MC, so I have to make a deliberate attempt to sign on from a
networked PC to test it (or at least I have to port some messages over
and test it). I have some com routines, written in C, that I'm going
to pass over to you later tonite.
Msg #3306 Dated 22:29:21 05-23-91 3232 <--> 3307
From: MAX MAVEN
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I will stand behind my comment. Blaming bad magicians is not a cop-out,
by-way or "convenient excuse." Bad magicians are not simply dead weight
on magic; that would be bad enough, but the situation as I see it is
that bad magicians _actively_ hurt the field.
As to the existence of private networks ("inner circles," if you wish),
it's a long-standing tradition that used to be more visible, until the
spread of other types of networks (i.e., magic clubs) built up the
attitude that everyone "deserves" to have access to everything. The
networks still thrive, but they tend to be low profile.
It is important, I think, to emphasize that these networks are not
-- I repeat, not -- based upon the type of "country club" mentality you
suggest. Rather, the image is more akin to admission to a university.
Yes, I know there are exceptions, but generally speaking one is allowed
to attend a university based upon a demonstration of knowledge and
ability, combined with an established record.
The topic of magic (and variety arts in general) in the context of
contemporary television is too elaborate for me to jump into at the
moment. However, I'll mention that there has been far more magic on
English television than on Japanese.
Msg #3307 Dated 22:36:42 05-23-91 3233 <--> 3311
From: MAX MAVEN
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
No, I don't think so.
Msg #3308 Dated 22:37:04 05-23-91 3230 <-
From: MAX MAVEN
To: BILL WELLS (X)
Re: COMMENT ON #2986
Did Joe Stevens ever pass along my comments about this? I think it's a
fine idea, but there is a stumbling block in the arranging that must be
addressed if this is going to work.
Msg #3309 Dated 22:38:54 05-23-91 3280 <--> 3344
From: MAX MAVEN
To: SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
It's a short one-shot for PBS, which has aired at least twice in the
past year or two.
Msg #3310 Dated 23:05:53 05-23-91 -> 3313
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
[ ] This month [ ] This week [X] Tonite
I watched an episode of
[X] My Life and Times [ ] All My Children [ ] StarTrek
written by
[ ] Max Maven [ ] Wayne Powers [X] Evan Katz
It was
[X] Stupendous [ ] Great [ ] Mediocre [ ] Boring [ ] Awful
I especially liked the part about the
[ ] dog [ ] lady [X] caterer [ ] magician [ ] cat
Well done, Evan!
Msg #3311 Dated 23:28:46 05-23-91 3307 <--> 3312
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I hope you're right.
Msg #3312 Dated 23:07:27 05-23-91 3306 <--> 3317
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
OK, let's assume that "bad magic" (or "bad magicians," if you prefer) is
a serious problem. The real question should be, "How do we address/fix
this?" To simply deplore it won't change anything, so, to that extent,
it is a cop-out. Magic is a field that is entrepreneurial in nature.
There is no barrier to becoming a professional - no license, no
significant start-up cost, etc. (by the way, my own profession shares
this set of problems). What would you suggest?
I'm not sure how the networks ("inner circles") got into this
discussion. They don't seem particularly relevant. But, for the
nonce, I will accept your premise that they are open to all who are
qualified, based on a fully explainable and documentable set of
criteria (it would be interesting to know how many women and minority
members there are in any particular circle). How do you feel these
help? It is easy to suspect that they do the reverse, increasing the
insular nature of the members. I have some small experience with
similar patterns, and I can reasonably state that, like what occurred
in the Nixon administration, they serve only to reaffirm and amplify
the inherent attitudes of the members. If you want to improve the
state of magic, I would seriously suggest that you drop all such
connections, shut off your fax machine, and spend a few weeks in the
"outside world," preferably incognito.
Msg #3313 Dated 23:33:37 05-23-91 3310 <--> 3326
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
By the way, did I ever tell you that my wife and I had 600 people at
our ceremony, that her father performed the nuptials, that my best
friend's father, a normally shy and quiet person, got drunk and
insisted on singing songs, and that the photographers took off in the
middle of the reception because they worked for a television station
and there was a big fire story to cover?
When did you say your own ceremony was going to be?
Msg #3314 Dated 23:30:55 05-23-91 -> 3316
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: ALL
Re: SO...WHEN???
So...WHEN is that atrocity in front of the Magic Castle going to be
removed???!!!
It's been there MUCH TOO LONG, already!
The rumors floating about have it that the powers-that-be have NO
INTENTION of removing it at all! The announcement that the "Leaking
Car Wreck" would be removed due to popular demand were only to calm the
furor and let everyone get used to it...counting on the growing weight
of apathy to defuse the issue.
WELL, I'M NOT APATHETIC, DAMMIT!
The board voted to remove it. The announcement was made in the Friday
lunch bulletin that it was indeed going to be removed.
So, now, the question is WHEN???
Perhaps we need to launch a letter-writing campaign.
Maybe a demonstration of outraged magi with invitations to the press!
WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO GET THAT PIECE OF GARBAGE TAKEN DOWN???!!!
Msg #3316 Dated 23:50:21 05-23-91 3314 <--> 3351
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
AGREED! BUT you should see the announcement that appeared in the Magic
Castle Chronicle for May 17th!!! It was printed LATE and did NOT
appear on the backs of the menus we had for the luncheon. TABMAN has
the ONLY copy I was able to round up. There are SIGNIFICANT comments
in it about how the SAME ARTIST was retained to create the decor for
the library! He evidently plans to use the backs of '57 Chevy's in
place of the more traditional library chairs.
TAB - Could you append the significant portions of the Chronicle? The
opening paragraph about Milt being away, the mention of the MAGIC!
luncheon and the Michael paragraph? We were going to make a copy
before you left, but we didn't, and you have it all.
Msg #3317 Dated 23:57:24 05-23-91 3209 <--> 3318
From: T A WATERS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Most people learn from interaction -- but you don't learn what you are
teaching them. You may learn how to teach them more efficiently, but
-- unless what you are teaching them is not well thought out to begin
with -- they don't teach YOU about IT.
Msg #3318 Dated 0:00:06 05-24-91 3248 <--> 3319
From: T A WATERS
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
It should be noted that neither of those TV series featuring a magician
as the hero was successful.
Msg #3319 Dated 0:01:32 05-24-91 3289 <--> 3322
From: T A WATERS
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I don't think elitism is always a bad thing. To be completely
insufferable, let me point out that I have been studying magic
seriously for forty years now, and have put a great deal of effort and
thought into it. Given that most magicians think they've accomplished
something if they've read half-a-dozen books, I think I can safely say
that in most interactions with random magicians I am unlikely to learn
anything new. Magic is notorious for re-inventing the wheel every
fifteen minutes, something that would not happen so often if more
magicians were serious about the study of magic. I don't think I know
it all, certainly; I am always learning something new -- but not, for
the most part, for magicians. And if you think that's elitist -- well,
sorry, but I have worked very hard to learn what I know -- and if I
think I may know a bit more than someone who has been casually
interested in magic for a few years, then -- I'm an elitist. Guilty.
Msg #3320 Dated 0:12:20 05-24-91 3215 <--> 3415
From: T A WATERS
To: CHARLIE RANDALL (X)
Re: LIBRARY
The opening date for the Library will be set by my boss Milt Larsen; as
of right now, there's still a lot of hammering and plastering and
painting going on. It might be ready in early June -- but I would not,
were I you, suspend my respiratory functions in that expectation.
Msg #3322 Dated 0:29:56 05-24-91 3208 <--> 3323
From: EVAN KATZ
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
T A --
It is generalization. So general, I feel, that it all becomes moot.
The point that a performer should be as good as they possibly can be is
obvious. The line "A pro will treasure an idea for a take or a line
more than a hundred tricks..." applies to the GOOD pro. And that's a
fine an narrow group. It seems to me the sensible discussion should be
about good and bad magic. The foolish, snobbish discussion is about
amateur vs professional magic. Amateur does not equal less than great
magic, pro DEFINITELY doesn't mean great magic.
The distinctions seem so obvious to me that I wonder about the hidden
agendas behind this slamming of amateur magicians. Is it a wincing
pain over the percevied damaged these people are doing to your art? Is
it bitterness that magic is not a more popular, lucrative art?
It all seems so silly, frankly. The difference between an elitist and
a snob is thus -- an elitist makes distinctions based on some
understood value system. A snob does not. An elitist treasures good
magic over bad, regardless of the source. A snob dickers over the
words amateur and professional, as if they were choosing one pair of
designer jeans over another.
I'm sure you don't mean to sound snobbish, T A. I'm sure you're not a
snob at all. But you must realize that this insistence on sticking to
this amateur-slagging does not make your no doubt noble motives clear.
It sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder when in fact what I
really think you're doing is crying out in pain over what you see as
problems in magic.
I am quite sure I will never attain your level of knowledge and
expertise in the art of magic. But there is a certain nobility and
pride that comes with being a concerned and committed amateur that is
valuable as well. It is not necessary to wound our nobility and pride
to preserve yours. We all acknowledge your position and
accomplishments, as well as those of other magi of your class. Please
do not feel that it is necessary to make DISTINCTIONS all the time.
Ciao.
Msg #3323 Dated 0:32:45 05-24-91 3317 <--> 3324
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
You may not be acquainted with the latest pedagogical techniques, T A.
"Teaching" is obsolete. One is supposed to cause learning to occur.
In a classroom situation, the interactive give and take should also
create a learning environment for the "teacher."
Actually, since instructional design is my profession, I'd be pleased
to discuss the whole topic at length sometime.
Msg #3324 Dated 0:40:32 05-24-91 3317 <--> 3336
From: EVAN KATZ
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
The best teachers in the world pride themselves on learning from their
students. To stretch a comparison, how many times have you heard
people say that children continue to teach them things about
themselves.
Msg #3326 Dated 0:42:12 05-24-91 3310 <--> 3327
From: EVAN KATZ
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Thanks, David! I'm sure it did horribly in the ratings, it was up
against an episode of "Cheers." I was rewritten (you almost always
are), but 90% of that is me. To be honest I thought it played a little
flat. The actors seemed to think that doing comedy meant rolling their
eyes a lot. I am, however, probably a lot harder on it than there's
reason to be. There's some funny stuff, I hope. Anyway, it made me
really happy to hear that you liked it!
PS--
Oh there's one thing I wanted to bring up. It's all this crap AMATEUR
WRITERS keep throwing out into the world. You know, like when they
write some really shitty poem and they read it to friends -- I think
it's really damaging the way people look at writing. If only those
danged amateurs would just stop writing, everything in the world would
be better, don't you think? Not only would TV and movies be better,
but I honestly think the air would be cleaner. The sky would be bluer.
The hole in the ozone smaller...
Msg #3327 Dated 0:46:16 05-24-91 3313 <--> 3328
From: EVAN KATZ
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
The ceremony will be in the end of October. If we last through the
bickering _about_ said ceremony...
All kidding aside, as this thing is planned I'm starting to get that
sinking feeling in my stomach like when you know something's getting
out of your control and there's absolutely nothing you're going to be
able to do about it and...
Msg #3328 Dated 0:47:11 05-24-91 3326 <--> 3329
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Evan -
It is even WORSE THAN YOU THINK! There are teachers who FORCE ordinary
students to write - not just poems, but stories, book reports, etc.
You have to get to the root of the problem and STOP teaching these
non-professionals!
Msg #3329 Dated 0:49:05 05-24-91 3327 <--> 3331
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Yeah! The only thing I can tell you is that sometimes it works. We
seldom look at the pictures that we did get, we have never played the
audio tape (video was not an amateur sport at the time and doing a
video tape would have required a studio truck - if I can ever find it,
we may play the audio for the 25th Anniversary), but, 23 years later,
we still seem to like each other and we still seem to enjoy each other's
company.
Of course, now, with a 2-1/2 year old running around, we don't see as
much of each other, but the first 21-years of "just us" were pretty
nice.
Msg #3330 Dated 0:47:46 05-24-91 -> 3418
From: EVAN KATZ
To: ALL
Re: WANTED
-- WANTED --
WHO: Amateur Magicians
AGE: 11 and up
DESCRIP: Widely Varying.
WHERE: Everywhere!
The authorities that be are considering offering LARGE CASH
REWARDS for the capture of AMATEUR MAGICIANS. They are guilty
of the crime of doing bad magic, damaging the art of magic, and
pissing Max Maven off.
Yes, the more astute among you are probably thinking, "Yes, but
all magicians must have been amateurs at some point," but have
no fear. Once being on the bottom of the ladder has never
stopped those above from crapping on those below, so why should
it now?
The REWARDS being considered are many. They include SECRETS --
being able to know them and keep them to yourselves and only
other guys you really, really like, just like in third grade.
It's also rumoured that the secret to the HAR concept will be
revealed to people who turn in this magi-criminals. But most
important is a reward we can't give you. It's a reward you give
yourself. By turning in these horrible amateurs, you'll feel
much more convinced of your own superiority! More even than
when you stole the little kid next door's ball and laughed
because he couldn't do anything to stop you.
-- TURN THEM IN --
-- DON'T DELAY --
Msg #3331 Dated 0:58:12 05-24-91 3328 <--> 3332
From: EVAN KATZ
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
David--
I think you're really on to something here. If we refuse to teach kids
how to write, we will completely eliminate BAD writers! Brilliant!
Msg #3332 Dated 1:30:15 05-24-91 3331 <--> 3337
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Not only that, Evan, but we will increase (if that is possible) their
dependence on television!
Msg #3336 Dated 3:16:15 05-24-91 3312 <--> 3346
From: MAX MAVEN
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
It seems to me that the way to work toward solving the problem of bad
magicians dragging down the art is for the general magic populace to
stop complimenting bad performers, and to start developing some sort of
critical eye. Too many people in magic decide that, if someone is doing
a magic show, they automatically deserve support. I don't think so. In
the same line, perhaps the clubs should stop hustling new members with
their current level of fervent abandon, and create some criteria.
As to your suggestions as to how I myself might work toward improving
the state of magic, thanks, but I devote the majority of my time to
that task already. You may not agree with my opinions or attitudes, but
if nothing else acknowledge my effort.
And you have no basis for knowing my involvement with the "outside
world."
If you're opposed to the tradition of "inner circles," you're opposed
to a historical line that is long and healthy, with a noteworthy
populace.
Msg #3337 Dated 3:22:40 05-24-91 3326 <--> 3350
From: MAX MAVEN
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
This discussion is becoming silly. If you wish to persist in turning my
comments inside-out, fine. However, I don't believe you would actually
enjoy it if any highschool kid who wrote a poem automatically decided
that accomplishment made him the peer of any member of the Writers
Guild.
Msg #3343 Dated 6:21:38 05-24-91 2311 <--> 3361
From: HARRISON CARROLL
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: FFFF
Tabman: Got your mail.. Thankx. I'll take any help I can get...
Msg #3344 Dated 7:48:00 05-24-91 3279 <--> 3345
From: PETE BIRO
To: SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
I only know of a Juggler's Castle in Hollywood ! HAR?
Msg #3345 Dated 7:48:42 05-24-91 3309 <--> 3362
From: PETE BIRO
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
Topper Martyn published a small book, titled "Juggling for Magicians".
Msg #3346 Dated 7:50:04 05-24-91 3292 <--> 3347
From: PETE BIRO
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Went to a Budweiser Party here at Indy last night. The Budweiser
Magician was strolling about doing card tricks. (I did not get his
name) but anyway, he started working the group I was standing with and
in the middle of his routine HE LOST a card... Nutcase that I am I
said, "You need one of Vernon's OUTS!" He didn't know who I was. He
glanced my way, but kept working moving onto a new trick. Har.
Then he said to me, in an aside, "How do you know the name Vernon?" I
said "Charlie Miller told me, and you could have saved the previous
trick with an Erdnase Bottom Palm, the card was on the bottom, not the
top!" He was really set back on this... then suddenly recognized me
saying, "I haven't seen you since Long Beach 1985!"
Good stuff....
Msg #3347 Dated 7:54:35 05-24-91 3306 <--> 3348
From: PETE BIRO
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Yep, Max... the inner networks do exist and access is PRIMARILY based
on your ability to CONTRIBUTE.
Msg #3348 Dated 8:12:45 05-24-91 3304 <--> 3349
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
It works very well and with the windowed reply zone, interactive.
Msg #3349 Dated 8:12:51 05-24-91 3306 <--> 3352
From: TABBY CRABB
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
While the proliferation of magic entheusisists during heydays has
brought money into magic's coffers; it may well be the "inner circle"
that has kept it alive during slow times. There is somewhat of a
historical precident here, and again I make reference to the "dark
ages."
Msg #3350 Dated 8:13:00 05-24-91 3310 <--> 3356
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
I was at the firehall last night but Gloria said it was good too.
Msg #3351 Dated 8:13:04 05-24-91 3316 <--> 3372
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
OK.....and I'll quote from The Magic Castle Chronicle for Friday
May 17, 1991..........."Your writer MILT LARSEN is off "Cruisin"...
this is his nephew Dominique writing from the rolling hills above
Malibu............." and Dominique goes on to say, "MICHAEL, the
artist who created the wonderful sculpture in the fountain in front
of the Magic Castle is here with his crew finishing up touches on the
new library. The new design will be keeping the same vein as the
sculpture and will feature seats made out of 1957 Chevy trunks,
sotlights from headlights and shelves made out of car doors. You're
gonna love it! New librarian, T.A. Waters will be in full mechanics
regalia at the opening."
Msg #3352 Dated 8:13:18 05-24-91 3318 <--> 3353
From: TABBY CRABB
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Perhaps not successful in the end, however, getting the budget and
the time slot can be viewed as success in itself from my perspective.
Msg #3353 Dated 8:13:23 05-24-91 3319 <--> 3354
From: TABBY CRABB
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Is the oposite of elitism, mediocrity? Without the greats to draw
from, my knowledge would be nil. I for one appreciate those who have
devoted their lives to this singular study. Perhaps the field is
fraught with problems (what field isn't - banking, politics, etc)
but there used to be a time when devotees worked to be part of an
elite group.
Msg #3354 Dated 8:13:32 05-24-91 3322 <--> 3355
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I'm not put off by "bad magic" per se; but by bad magic posing as
good magic, or worse yet, bad magic that "thinks" it's good magic.
Egomaniacs are easy to deal with, it is idiots who bug me. Successful
idiots even more.
Msg #3355 Dated 8:13:39 05-24-91 3323 <--> 3363
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
In my studies of the martial arts and philosophy over the past 20
some odd years one thing still sticks in my mind concerning Chinese
Masters of Kung Fu. The master didn't feel his mastery had been
validated until his students surpassed him, and he in turn became
their student. This is how I try to approach my learning-teaching-
learning with those interested in what I do. So far, no apprentice
tabmen though. I guess it's a dying art....
Msg #3356 Dated 8:13:49 05-24-91 3326 <--> 3357
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
I resent that reference to amateur writers and wish to point out that
some of the greatest poetry was written by amateurs like Emily
Dickenson (a woman to boot).
Msg #3357 Dated 8:13:55 05-24-91 3327 <--> 3358
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
can give us an on the scenes report.
Msg #3358 Dated 8:13:59 05-24-91 3328 <--> 3359
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Now, you too have joined this amateur writer bashing which has taken
an ugly tone of late. Granted, you guys are good; but how does an
amateur who aspires to join the ranks of the elite learn? Stop
bashing amateur writers and return this board to its' proper function
of magician bashing.
Msg #3359 Dated 8:14:07 05-24-91 3329 <--> 3371
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Marriage is cool if you get lucky (or smart like you and Evan).
Msg #3361 Dated 8:14:23 05-24-91 3343 <--> 3516
From: TABBY CRABB
To: HARRISON CARROLL (X)
Re: FFFF
Harrison,
which makes the whole thing a little more manageable. It still takes
some finger work, but it is within reach now. I will outline the
steps involved as soon as Jerry gets closer to a beta version. I love
it.
Msg #3362 Dated 8:26:54 05-24-91 3344 <--> 3368
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
Don't you mean in West H'wood?
Msg #3363 Dated 8:26:58 05-24-91 3346 <--> 3364
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Daryl showed me something at FFFF and called it some name I'd never
heard of. He had asked me if I was a magician before he showed me a
coupla tricks and technically I'm not a magician as I believe that
the popular definition includes performance. After the trick
I said that more specifically it was the "Tenkai Move" and he stared
and asked who I was saying he hadn't heard it reference as that in a
long time. I had a blast for an hour or so showing him my impecable
O'Dowd/Plants Top Deal. He said he's sign on MAGIC! in the fall.
Msg #3364 Dated 8:27:08 05-24-91 3347 <--> 3366
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Discovery and discrete disclosure are only a part of the process.
Msg #3366 Dated 8:51:52 05-24-91 3347 <--> 3367
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Discovery and discrete disclosure are only a part of the process.
Msg #3367 Dated 8:51:56 05-24-91 3347 <--> 3369
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I don't mean to but in, but I'm using rdmagic! now and think it's
something you'd be interested in. I have it set up in Procomm off the
"Alt A". After sign on and RC;* download by my normal tactics, I key
Alt A and am in rdmagic!. Three keystrokes and I'm in an interactive
read mode similar to TAPCIS. After reading and replying I hit the Esc
key twice and am back in procomm where Alt D,# and I'm back on MAGIC!
with only one upload to make and there is an "auto reply" with only
a few key strokes. This is something you'll love and with a laptop
you could save up messages for a week and then take a long plane
flight with something fun to do.
Msg #3368 Dated 8:52:06 05-24-91 3345 <--> 3476
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
I wish he performed in the states more.
Msg #3369 Dated 8:52:08 05-24-91 3346 <--> 3370
From: TABBY CRABB
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
The Charlie Miller and Erdnase bottom palm reference mustof killed
him. When I said Tenkai move to Daryl, his eyes sort of glassed over
for an instant. Might I suggest, that before Tenkai Move becomes a
buzzword; that it only produces the desired effect when used properly
and in the right context.
Msg #3370 Dated 9:41:57 05-24-91 3336 <--> 3387
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Bravo!
Msg #3371 Dated 9:45:53 05-24-91 3337 <--> 3380
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
In fact, the Writers' Guild is one of the most ELITIST of all the
Hollywood professional organizations...difficult to join and with
different levels of membership...voting and non-voting!
In a note of clarification, let me say that I'm envious. I only wish
that Screen Actors' Guild and American Federation of Television and
Radio Artists had the same arrangement.
Msg #3372 Dated 9:51:12 05-24-91 3316 <--> 3374
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
Clever comment about the library, David.
(The thought makes me ill.)
I'M SERIOUS HERE!
I don't want to be sidetracked with cute comments.
If anyone has a genuine suggestion on how to achieve the prompt
restoration of the old Castle fountain, please respond!
Msg #3373 Dated 10:27:54 05-24-91 -> 3517
From: TABBY CRABB
To: HARRISON CARROLL (X)
Re: RAY MERTZ
Call Ray and tell him to plug his ans machine so he'd know when his
friends call....
Msg #3374 Dated 10:37:07 05-24-91 3372 <--> 3377
From: TABBY CRABB
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
I've got the menu with the Castle Chronicles on the back. It must
be true since it is in the Chronicle?? You don't think it's a joke,
do you?? Have you tried Jack Daniel's in a thimble yet? Have you
tried palming one full of liquid? I tried to start my own elitist
group but I wouldn't let myself in. Am thankful I can still talk.
Msg #3375 Dated 11:06:24 05-24-91 3116 <--> 3388
From: DOUGLAS LARSON
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
Jerry,
I have lost all memory of the flash. I know once it occured with the
chinese coin, but also remember seeing a silver coin in your right. I
may have been looking for it as I was watching the process more than
getting involved in the story. I don't think that the average person
would have seen as much as I did because they would have followed your
misdirection more. I tried not to follow the misdirection because I
wanted to see how you put the routine together.(trying to study what
makes a routine good) I didn't want to get fooled and then try to
study backward after it was all over.
Msg #3376 Dated 11:15:36 05-24-91 -> 3379
From: MARVIN STERN
To: ALL
Re: MEMORIAL DAY
Trust all of you have a fine long week-end. Off to the Castle for
lunch with a customer, and then to Balboa for a nice restful week-end.
Hope the sun comes out.
Msg #3377 Dated 11:19:59 05-24-91 3351 <--> 3378
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
Thanks, Tab. If'n you get a chance, would you post me a photocopy for
my files? Might be difficult because of the orange paper.
Msg #3378 Dated 11:21:29 05-24-91 3372 <--> 3385
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
Seriously, the comment was NOT mine. It DID appear in the Chronicle
the day of the luncheon and Tab has now uploaded the salient portion.
I agree about the statue. It should have been gone within 48-hours of
the board vote. Or at least covered with a bag. I've used up my
welcome calling about it - could you give 'em a call and see if you can
find out when it will be gone?
Msg #3379 Dated 11:25:45 05-24-91 3376 <--> 3386
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: MEMORIAL DAY
Have a good one, Marvin.
Msg #3380 Dated 11:54:57 05-24-91 3337 <--> 3381
From: EVAN KATZ
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
The whole point is I once WAS one of those kids who wrote a poem! I'm
not turning your comments inside-out as much as JOKING, Max. It's
something people do sometimes, you know.
Msg #3381 Dated 11:55:41 05-24-91 3350 <--> 3382
From: EVAN KATZ
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Tanks.
Msg #3382 Dated 11:55:59 05-24-91 3356 <--> 3383
From: EVAN KATZ
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
I submit that if we didn't teach most people writing, then not only
would there be no bad writers, it would make those of us who could
write all the more special.
Msg #3383 Dated 11:56:39 05-24-91 3357 <--> 3384
From: EVAN KATZ
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Heh?
Msg #3384 Dated 11:57:19 05-24-91 3371 <--> 3391
From: EVAN KATZ
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
All you have to do to join is sell a script.
Period. That doesn't mean it has to be a good script, or you a good
writer, merely that someone wanted to give you $ for it. That's not
elitist, it makes the WGA a professional organization. Magic, I think,
has no real counterpart. The Castle, the IBM, and MAGIC! itself are
orgs for both pros and amateurs. Si?
Msg #3385 Dated 12:01:19 05-24-91 3374 <--> 3390
From: EVAN KATZ
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
Groucho Marx via Sigmund Freud is responsible for the comment that he
wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have him for a member.
Msg #3386 Dated 12:02:38 05-24-91 3376 <--> 3389
From: EVAN KATZ
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: MEMORIAL DAY
Have a nice time, Marvin!
Msg #3387 Dated 12:03:30 05-24-91 3354 <--> 3394
From: EVAN KATZ
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Successful idiots are even more vexing, I agree.
Msg #3388 Dated 12:27:10 05-24-91 3375 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DOUGLAS LARSON (X)
Re: YOUR QUESTION
To me, it's fun to be fooled. I get into it and go with the flow.
A cut the cards at so many buckles in Buffalo they named a false
shuffle using two rubber bands and a pocket knife after me.
Msg #3389 Dated 12:27:15 05-24-91 3376 <--> 3498
From: TABBY CRABB
To: MARVIN STERN (X)
Re: MEMORIAL DAY
Sounds just about perfect. I'm off Sunday to a Z Rock record release
party for Catch 22 and install my 2nd hole on the tabman links (so
far one hole - #18) on Monday. I've got #1 and #9 to go. No greens
just pitch to the flag. Closest ball wins.
Msg #3390 Dated 12:27:20 05-24-91 3377 <--> 3393
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
I didn't think you had room for even one more slip of paper in those
files! but will try to comply with your request.
Msg #3391 Dated 12:27:25 05-24-91 3382 <--> 3392
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Elitist!
Msg #3392 Dated 12:27:28 05-24-91 3384 <--> 3403
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
They do provide a way for like-minded people to meet. I submit that
MAGIC! is elitist in its' own respect. Not only do you have to
surmount computerese, you have to learn to use a modem and then get
past the Sysop. Are we not the pot, calling the kettle black?? Hmmm..
Msg #3393 Dated 12:27:33 05-24-91 3385 <--> 3396
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
What are you insinuating??? Hmmmmm.....
Msg #3394 Dated 12:27:37 05-24-91 3387 <--> 3395
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Trying to communicate with one is the worst!
Msg #3395 Dated 11:34:07 05-24-91 3336 <--> 3398
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Max -
I'm sure that you know that I have the profoundest respect for you, both
as a person and as a professional in this craft. Off-line, in private,
outside of your ear-shot, I have referred to you as one of the most
brilliant minds of our age. That you chose to apply yourself to the
craft of magic is something all of us who are passionate about this
field are intensely grateful for. Although I must admit that I have,
without disclosing it to anyone, ruminated on what the World would be
like had you chosen statecraft as a career.
As I mentioned previously, I do think, though, that sometimes you
narrow your perception of an issue to a by-way, rather than to the main
issue. This discussion is probably one of the most important we have
had on MAGIC! to date. And, frankly, MAGIC! is the only vehicle that
could support the intense give and take that has occured. I'd like to
see some positive results emerge - results that would improve the state
of magic.
But we differ in methodology. Assulting amateurs and clubs
accomplishes little. There are substantial factors that will always
make the clubs want more and more members. What is needed is the sort
of thinking that can turn these "liabilities" into assets. There is
little purpose served by railing against the existance of the game,
there is a great deal to be achieved by winning it. We have a chance
here to work on the later, and I'd prefer to see our energies applied
in that direction.
Sometimes, and I can't help but think that it is in part out of a lack
of respect for my abilities, you do have a tendancy to tar my positions
with a broad brush. I'd like to clarify a couple of things, both for
you and for others, lest they otherwise get covered by the tar. At NO
time in this discussion did I indicate that I was opposed to the
tradition of inner circles. As a philosophical elitist, I have no
trouble with their existance. What I did say was that I failed to see
how they were germaine to the issue we were discussing. I also said
that I had some technical problems with their design and construction.
Just as there are clearly some very inherent dangers in democracy,
which eventually caters only to medicority, there are inherent dangers
in the form of elitism in which the Lowells speak only to the Cabots
and the Cabots speak only to G-d.
We have a chance here to further the craft of magic. Let's use it,
not just intelligently, but wisely.
Msg #3396 Dated 12:45:48 05-24-91 3390 <--> 3399
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
I'm going to start keeping mentions of MAGIC! and MAGIC!'s history in
an album. Will place it on a shelf in the great room, rather than
trying to stuff it into the files. Thanks.
Msg #3399 Dated 13:18:01 05-24-91 3396 <--> 3400
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
In that case (the one in the great room) I'll keep the copy and
send the original along to you.
Msg #3400 Dated 13:19:37 05-24-91 3399 <--> 3401
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
NO! YOU keep the original. A copy is fine for my purposes.
Msg #3401 Dated 16:26:27 05-24-91 3374 <--> 3402
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
"I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member."
--Groucho
Msg #3402 Dated 16:28:09 05-24-91 3378 <--> 3407
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
Yes, I'll call AGAIN, although I suspect that a few isolated phone
calls are not going to be enough to get any action on the matter.
Msg #3403 Dated 16:30:47 05-24-91 3384 <--> 3406
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
You missed my point, Evan. The tiered structure of membership is
something I've proposed to past presidents of S.A.G. Ed Asner, Patty
Duke and, most recently, Barry Gordon. The response boils down to
accusations...albeit in varying degrees of directness...of elitism.
Interesting that you didn't mention S.A.M., although I think the
situation is the same. Max raised the point first, which I
wholeheartedly second, that these organizations should spend less time
trying to get new members to pad the roster and more time increasing
the quality of magic as understood and performed by its existing
members. Perhaps tiered membership is an idea which could be explored.
The Academy of Magical Arts, Inc., (Magic Castle), has broken it down
to "regular" and "associate" memberships through the audition process,
at least. It's not much, but it's miles ahead of IBM and SAM.
Msg #3404 Dated 16:42:10 05-24-91 -> 3431
From: WAYNE POWERS
To: ALL
Re: NICE STUFF!
I perused an advance copy of the new issue of GENII and it's got some
really nice stuff this time around. In addition to the regular
insightful reviews from Phil Goldstein and a good cover story with
tricks & routines, along with a great deal of good reading all around,
there is a brief but nice article on Table Hopping from our own Jim
Sisti, (congrats, Jim!), and the second installment of Tony Giorgio's
Letters! Tony gets into his experiences with "broad tossing." This is
the good stuff! Tony paints with a colorful brush and you're in store
for some thoroughly enjoyable and informative reading!
Msg #3405 Dated 17:15:27 05-24-91 3395 <--> 3408
From: MAX MAVEN
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
My comments to you have nothing to do with a "lack of respect for
[your] abilities," David. Frankly, in the field of magic I do not know
what your abilities are -- so how can I respect or not respect them?
Your comments are generally erudite, and I respect you as being
intelligent and well read.
Msg #3406 Dated 17:19:48 05-24-91 3403 <--> 3429
From: MAX MAVEN
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Indeed. The subject of further tiering within the Castle organization
has been bandied about for years.
Msg #3407 Dated 17:27:45 05-24-91 3402 <--> 3413
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
Was thinking that the phone call would be for fact finding purposes.
We could create a mass mailing by creating a form on here that everyone
could print directly onto a postcard.
Msg #3408 Dated 17:31:24 05-24-91 3405 <--> 3412
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Thank you. I will be the first to admit that in the field of magic my
abilities are sleight.
Msg #3409 Dated 17:35:33 05-24-91 -> 3485
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: ALL
Re: ANECDOTE
As many of you know, my 2-1/2 year old son is passionately interested
in magic (right now he's watching Copperfield XIII again - the 13,000th
time, I believe).
A couple of weeks ago we took him to the Castle for Sunday brunch and
he seemed to enjoy it very much. He still talks about the experience
and can identify the owl on my Castle pin as being the "Owl at the
Magic Castle."
In one of these conversations, I asked him, "What do you say to the owl
at the Magic Castle?"
His reply, "You say, Open Sesame Street!"
Msg #3410 Dated 18:19:11 05-24-91 3243 <--> 3512
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: RESPONSE TO 2932
I got the Friday USA Today. Haven't had a chance to go completely thru
it yet. What pages are your photos on?
Msg #3411 Dated 18:34:45 05-24-91 3303 <--> 3436
From: JERRY BURTON
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: IMP
Dedication ? No its more like I can't stand having a $ 150
phone bill, scanning msgs and replying on-line - besides this
is what I do professionally and its really my first love -
magic is a strong second.
Msg #3412 Dated 18:34:52 05-24-91 3319 <--> 3416
From: JERRY BURTON
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Your type of elitism, i.e. rational discussion from a position of
knowledge, is not a bad thing. The type I was refering to was the
attitude that since I'm a pro, then there is absolutely nothing I
could ever learn from anyone who is not a pro magician. Your comment
regarding Burger TEACHING amateurs and rarely (if ever) LEARNING
from them, prompted the comment - I wanted to see where you were
coming from.
.
Everyone starts out as an amateur. Assuming they study and work on
their own they may eventually reach that nether-land of what
Gene Anderson calls the part-pro (i.e. someone who is good enough
to be a professional, but can't devote full-time to it). I reject
the hypothesis that all amateurs are 'bad' and all pros are 'good',
as I'm sure you must also. The question is, where can the qualified
amateur go to gain the EXTRA training that puts him into the GOOD
MAGICIAN category (here I mean that extra something that makes his
performance skills rival that of the full-time pro). I can learn
more tricks than I will ever do, where to I go to sharpen my
performance skills. I tried taking an improv class at Cal State LB,
and was considered a diletante, since my primary goal was not acting.
As a magician I was discounted immediately.
.
This thread has beat the devil out of the 'bad' magician, now how
do we overcome the problem - everyone agrees exists ?
Msg #3413 Dated 18:35:09 05-24-91 3372 <--> 3428
From: JERRY BURTON
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
How about a petition from castle members - I'll sign.
Msg #3415 Dated 18:35:23 05-24-91 3320 <--> 3437
From: JERRY BURTON
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: LIBRARY
Say it isn't true that the seats in the new library are the back
ends of 57 chevvies. I saw the menu David was talking about and it
has to be a joke, right ??
Msg #3416 Dated 18:35:31 05-24-91 3355 <--> 3417
From: JERRY BURTON
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
It is also true that the master does not believe he can TEACH
you anything thing, that is something you have to do for yourself.
He can show you things, but the process of TEACHING your body to do
things is totally internal. Are you familiar with Gene Anderson's
model of learning UNCONSCIOUS-INCOMPETENCE, CONSCIOUS-INCOMPETENCE,
CONSCIOUS-COMPETENCE, and ultimately UNCONSCIOUS-COMPETENCE ?.
Msg #3417 Dated 18:35:38 05-24-91 3369 <--> 3421
From: JERRY BURTON
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
You are truly an evil human being - I would have loved to have seen
that.
Msg #3418 Dated 18:35:45 05-24-91 3330 <--> 3432
From: JERRY BURTON
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: WANTED
Clever, but not particuliarly helpful. When are you going to start
the thread we talked about ?
Msg #3421 Dated 18:36:04 05-24-91 3370 <--> 3434
From: JERRY BURTON
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Would you be interested in the Magical Arts Performance Development
Workshop as a means of improving the art and converting the 'bad'
amateurs into 'good' amateurs ? It part of the 'Brotherhood' to
never be critical of your fellow magi, regardless of how much they
stink. I still go to Orange County Magic Club meetings (good reason
to get away from the keyboard for a while) and am amazed how little
some of these guys have progressed over the last ten years.
.
Problem is where can they go to learn how to perform magic better,
we have a small group (probably an 'inner-circle') that meet
privately on a monthly basis, to work on new routines as well as
offer constructive criticism. Those that can take it come back and
progrees, those that can't we don't see anymore, kind of a self
regulating group.
Msg #3422 Dated 18:37:51 05-24-91 -> 3439
From: BURT CARPENTER
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: SPIRIT THEATRE
Sorry Jerry but I have checked my last source and have not been able to
get a copy for you.
Msg #3424 Dated 18:42:16 05-24-91 -> 3448
From: BURT CARPENTER
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (X)
Re: DELAY
I was speaking with Louis Falanga yesterday about the delay in the
collectors edition of the Ammar book. As I know you are interested I
thought I might pass along the reason for the delay. It seems Louis has
had problems getting the slipcases made so that they will fit properly.
He hopes to have the problem fixed soon and says he thinks he will be
able to ship in another week to ten days at the latest. I'm glad there
was no such problem on the regular edition.
Msg #3428 Dated 19:33:31 05-24-91 3393 <--> 3441
From: EVAN KATZ
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
Something about members. Hmmm.
Msg #3429 Dated 19:35:59 05-24-91 3403 <--> 3430
From: EVAN KATZ
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
As far as I know, Wayne, the WGA does not really have non-voting
members. Or, you have to have not written anything for so many years
that the non-voting status is academic for most. I think this because
every time there's a strike, I hear grousing that it's the people who
aren't working who are voting to strike. This is CLEARLY a problem at
both SAG (actors union) and the DGA (directors). At SAG the VAST
majority of the members don't make their living from acting, so they
vote with a different agenda than working actors -- the people SAG is
supposed to represent. The DGA is run by the majority of the members
who are NOT directors, but first, second and third assistant directors
As to tiering membership, I have a few thoughts. The first is that
it's obnoxious, makes people feel not good, and can't be done fairly.
Who decides? And doesn't the club become that person's domain? With
the WGA, you only have to be a professional. No one professes to want
to tell the difference between good or bad writing because IT CAN'T be
done. And it can't be done in magic. Sure, there are guys who stink,
but who's to say comedy club magic is good or bad? It's taste, all the
way/
Be careful with all this calling for an elite society. Who knows if
they'd let any of us in.
Msg #3430 Dated 19:40:55 05-24-91 3406 <--> 3433
From: EVAN KATZ
To: MAX MAVEN (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
As soon a human begins organized, they began to try and draw themselves
into a hierarchical order, emphasizing the DIFFERENCES between them.
Further tiering at the Castle, an organization that exists so people
with a common interest can get together, will serve only a small
fraction of people, not the greater whole. If you want a professional
organization, I suggest you try to form one. You'll find it difficult
to come up with a good way to judge people, and, after a while, that
people won't want to be judged. But, I submit again, the Castle ands
MAGIC! are not professional organizations. They're not meant to serve
the needs of the professional -- they're meant to serve all of us.
Msg #3431 Dated 19:44:56 05-24-91 3404 <--> 3435
From: EVAN KATZ
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: NICE STUFF!
Is that the May, or June issue?
Msg #3432 Dated 19:47:58 05-24-91 3418 <--> 3480
From: EVAN KATZ
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: WANTED
Remind me, Jerry. With all this mud-slining, I've forgotten the
distilliation of what we discussed. Sorry. Help me get re-started?
Msg #3433 Dated 19:49:01 05-24-91 3391 <--> 3443
From: EVAN KATZ
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
You do know ahm kiddin', right T-man?
Msg #3434 Dated 19:49:24 05-24-91 3412 <--> 3438
From: EVAN KATZ
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Everyone DOESN'T agree that bad magicians are a critical problem to the
art. Everyone like me!
Msg #3435 Dated 19:57:16 05-24-91 3404 <--> 3442
From: TABBY CRABB
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: NICE STUFF!
I picked up one on the west coast, and agreed, quite good.
Msg #3436 Dated 19:57:21 05-24-91 3411 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: IMP
You do it well and can't wait to get my hands on the latest model.
Msg #3437 Dated 19:57:24 05-24-91 3415 <--> 3486
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: LIBRARY
Consider the source!
Msg #3438 Dated 19:57:28 05-24-91 3416 <--> 3440
From: TABBY CRABB
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I am a student of Core Competency.
Msg #3439 Dated 19:57:31 05-24-91 3422 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To: BURT CARPENTER
Re: SPIRIT THEATRE
Have you tried Hank Lee's 800 # or Charlie Randall??
Msg #3440 Dated 20:04:53 05-24-91 3355 <--> 3445
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I believe that many Native American tribes share that philosophy. They
also believe that an individual's knowledge is valueless if that
individual does not make an active effort to share it.
Msg #3441 Dated 20:07:57 05-24-91 3413 <--> 3452
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
Wayne is in charge of the committe to overthrow the statue.
Msg #3442 Dated 20:09:57 05-24-91 3431 <--> 3482
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: NICE STUFF!
Must be May.
Msg #3443 Dated 20:10:01 05-24-91 3433 <--> 3453
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
You bet, E-man; I figure everybody is to some degree.
Msg #3445 Dated 20:10:04 05-24-91 3434 <--> 3451
From: TABBY CRABB
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Magic's rise as a profession is up to the professionals, granted that
we all set the climate to a degree, and to them alone. Magic is an
answer for which no question has been asked save the one written in
the sleeve of my tuxedo jacket...."Did you get the money?"
Msg #3448 Dated 20:14:41 05-24-91 3424 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: BURT CARPENTER
Re: DELAY
Yeah, and I'm almost sorry I didn't order the regular edition in the
meantime. I'd heard a rumor about the slipcases - thanks for
confirming it.
Msg #3451 Dated 20:22:53 05-24-91 3440 <--> 3454
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Knowledge proprietary to any certain individual or group of indivds
is theirs (or ours) to use anysomewhatsoever. The apprentice system
had much going for it in my opinion. As populations have swelled,
competition for knowledge has grown accordingly and farsighted
thinkers and teachers have cashed in and illuminated the masses via
all media in a manner unthinkable half an age ago. Perhaps the shame
of the Masters is the perceived mediocrity swilling about their feet.
Msg #3452 Dated 20:23:02 05-24-91 3441 <--> 3455
From: TABBY CRABB
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
I'll let Michael install the "Caped Half Rafter" up here by the barn.
Msg #3453 Dated 20:25:40 05-24-91 3430 <--> 3473
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
I, for one, would NOT want to see additional classes of membership at
the Castle. It would be nice, however, to have some form of incentive
for the members, some recognition of continuing education or
achievement if you will. But there would be a lot of problems, not the
least of which is the political atmosphere of the Castle.
Msg #3454 Dated 20:29:16 05-24-91 3451 <--> 3467
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Another case of the Tabman being here, gone, creating a reply, and gone
again while I was still reading the mail.
The apprentice system did (and in some professions, does) have a lot
going for it. It taught attitudes, beliefs, values, etc. along with
the information. The cash based system we have now does do the reverse
- in effect, academe is one big "I'll teach you the trick, gimme a buck"
system. And, of course, no-one is willing to wash out the
incompetents. When I was an academic, I FAILED my own graduate
assistant! You can't believe how this went over with my colleagues -
fear and trembling in the hallways. They'd been giving her A's and
B's. They knew she was incompetent, they just didn't want to cause a
fuss. It is one of the reasons I chose to exit the cloistered halls.
P.S. - I received a brochure recently and I have fairly good reason to
suspect that my former graduate assistant, who I failed for cheating,
among other things, is now a hot-shot seminar leader making about $150K
a year...
Msg #3455 Dated 20:37:40 05-24-91 3452 <--> 3497
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: TABBY CRABB (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
Not sure I care for that, Tabman - it places the thing a mere quarter
of the World away and that would still bother me.
Msg #3461 Dated 22:22:58 05-24-91 -> 3465
From: STEPHEN A SPARKS
To: ALL
Re: HOUDINI P
FINALLY GOT THE ARTIST/WIFE TO DO ME A MAGIC PAINTING ON HOUDINI AND
SHE ASKED - "WHAT COLOR ARE HIS EYES???" GOT ME?? ANY HELP ON
THIS FROM YOU READERS???
Msg #3465 Dated 22:53:21 05-24-91 3461 <-
From: MANNY WELTMAN
To: STEPHEN A SPARKS (X)
Re: HOUDINI P
Houdini's eyes were blue-gray.
Msg #3467 Dated 23:24:10 05-24-91 3322 <--> 3468
From: T A WATERS
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
There are many highly skilled amateurs and many bad professionals; I
thought that was clear from what I have been saying. I am not slamming
amateurs at all, but bad magic -- and the fact is that most amateurs
(again, NOT ALL) are focussed on the hobbyist aspects of magic, such as
what's new, what's a variation on a variation, etc., rather than on
honing performance skills -- and most amateur groups -- where they will
have things like seeing who can learn a trick and do it in five
minutes, the kind of thing that encourages bad habits -- do very
little, in my opinion, to advance magic as an art.
Msg #3468 Dated 23:27:32 05-24-91 3346 <--> 3469
From: DANTE LARSEN
To: PETE BIRO (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Pete was that guy named Rick Gerber?
Msg #3469 Dated 23:28:00 05-24-91 3323 <--> 3470
From: T A WATERS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
These methods must be why the United States is leading the world in
education, hmmm?
Msg #3470 Dated 23:29:08 05-24-91 3324 <--> 3474
From: T A WATERS
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Again, the teachers may learn about teaching -- or about their
limitations in what they are teaching -- but they don't learn aboutTHE
SUBJECT THEY ARE TEACHING from the students. Oft times in teaching
someone an effect I am forced to think about it myself, and come up
with some new angles -- but that is, of course, not the same thing at
all.
Msg #3472 Dated 23:36:01 05-24-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: ALL
Re: DRAMAGIC
T A Waters has been kind enough to upload a thought piece - Dramagic -
which he recently published in Invocation. It is now in the files area
as DRAMAGIC. Thank you, T A.
Msg #3473 Dated 23:39:44 05-24-91 3326 <--> 3478
From: T A WATERS
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
As someone who has made his living as a writer from time to time, I
have no problem with the amateurs; unlike magicians, we don't impinge.
Msg #3474 Dated 23:38:20 05-24-91 3469 <--> 3477
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Sadly, the field of education and training is even more problematic
than magic. There are a large number of total amateurs - those who
have no training in education - who are very active in the business
(university professors outside the college of education, for example,
usually pride themselves on having no educational background). There
are also many, many poor professionals.
The system almost ensures that the worst people will get the jobs.
Their quilifications are measured, in the public school marketplace, by
how many courses they have sat through, not by ANY performance
criteria.
In short, if you think magic is rife with bad magicians, you should
check out the fields of education and training. I have totally opted
out of any public education sphere. I work in the corporate training
environment and seem to have a "star" reputation.
Msg #3476 Dated 23:45:43 05-24-91 3280 <--> 3682
From: DANTE LARSEN
To: SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re: JUGGLING & MAGIC
Sorry I can't remember. It was on P.B.S. and
featured some street performers from N.Y.
Msg #3477 Dated 23:45:59 05-24-91 3474 <--> 3483
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
P.S. - You do realize that when you teach YOU are engaging in the craft
as an amateur.
Msg #3478 Dated 23:45:16 05-24-91 3429 <--> 3479
From: T A WATERS
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
Re: your thoughts against tiering membership. (a) it is usually
perceived as obnoxious by the person who doesn't get the classification
he or she wants. (b) Since when is judging a person's worth supposed
to be dictated by how it makes them feel? When I was acting in New
York I was judged a lotta times, and when I didn't get the gig I felt
pretty lousy about it; so what? If you are going to assume that there
is such a thing as quality in magic, that implies making a judgement
about it.
As to (c), a bit more problematical: can it be done fairly?
Depends, as C.E.M. Joad used to say all the time, on what you mean by
fair -- and that in turn depends on what the purpose of the particular
club may be, and the consensus of its founding members.
Msg #3479 Dated 23:50:23 05-24-91 3430 <--> 3493
From: T A WATERS
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
I beg to disagree, and how surprised are you? The purpose of the Magic
Castle and the Academy of Magical Arts is -- in my opinion -- to serve
MAGIC -- and that is not always accomplished by considering everyone to
be equal. That might be democratic -- but magic is a performance art,
first, last and always; anything else is basically self-and-audience
abuse -- and art is not democratic.
Understand this is my personal view and not a statement of Castle
Policy at all.
Msg #3480 Dated 23:54:18 05-24-91 3330 <--> 3495
From: T A WATERS
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: WANTED
We assume you are joking again, right? You really DO understand what
we've been saying, so you just funnin' us, hey?
Msg #3482 Dated 23:58:15 05-24-91 3404 <--> 3529
From: DANTE LARSEN
To: WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re: NICE STUFF!
I would be curious as to how you acquired that
copy and from whom.
Msg #3483 Dated 0:00:09 05-25-91 3412 <--> 3484
From: T A WATERS
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I do want to make one thing perfectly clear -- as another California
bozo once said -- and that is that I am not anti-amateur and
pro-professional magician. Hardly; bad professionals do a lot more
harm to magic than bad amateurs because they have greater visibility.
It's long been a thesis of mine that if you considered a singer or
actor or dancer of the competency of the average PRO magician, that
singer or dancer or actor could never get hired; they wouldn't be good
enough to get work. The standards in magic are so low, however, that
anyone who can get through a trick without dropping the prop on their
foot can make some money performing.
On the other hand there are amateur groups -- like the Long Beach
Mystics Juniors and the Castle Juniors -- that have produced
world-class performers. They have done that because they weren't
indulging in magic as an escapist hobby but as an art they care deeply
about, and want to present in the best possible light.
One way to overcome the problem of bad magic is to start being honest
about it -- and, in the context of a purely social club, that tends not
to happen. People don't want to know.
Msg #3484 Dated 0:07:33 05-25-91 3440 <--> 3488
From: T A WATERS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I agree that knowledge should be shared -- but they have to want to
obtain it. I remember well a wonderful lecture on stagecraft and
presentation by Peter Pit, way back when the lectures were at the
Masquers. In the course of it, he used a couple of effects simply to
illustrate points. You're way ahead of me; at the end all they asked
about were the tricks, not the substance of the lecture. This was
incredibly valuable information, and they simply weren't interested;
things have improved -- but there's a lot more room for improvement.
Msg #3485 Dated 0:11:17 05-25-91 3409 <-
From: T A WATERS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: ANECDOTE
Of course he said that; he saw Miss Piggy right outside...
Msg #3486 Dated 0:12:08 05-25-91 3415 <--> 3513
From: T A WATERS
To: JERRY BURTON (X)
Re: LIBRARY
Actually they are Ford Pinto seats; a little scorched around the edges,
so we got a real good deal on them...
Msg #3488 Dated 0:13:59 05-25-91 3474 <--> 3489
From: T A WATERS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I don't have any kids -- but if I did I certainly wouldn't send them to
public school. Depressing to have to say that...
Msg #3489 Dated 0:14:53 05-25-91 3477 <--> 3490
From: T A WATERS
To: DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Obviously you haven't seen my fee structure...
Msg #3490 Dated 0:17:22 05-25-91 3484 <--> 3491
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
I've often wondered about the pre-occupation many people have with
tricks. I also see that as a small part of magic. It is interesting
to note that Randy Lund designed MAGIC2DB to hold about 300 or so
tricks since it could hold the info about them in memory and since he
felt that was probably several times the maximum number any working
mage would need.
Msg #3491 Dated 0:21:04 05-25-91 3488 <--> 3492
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
The private school environment is really no better, it just has more
cachet.
Msg #3492 Dated 0:22:58 05-25-91 3489 <--> 3499
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Granted. I chose the wrong term. What I did mean is that it is very
likely that you have had no training in instructional methodology.
Msg #3493 Dated 1:14:37 05-25-91 3478 <--> 3494
From: EVAN KATZ
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
a) In almost all cases, it is perceived as obnoxoious by a MAJORITY or
people involved, creating a climate you don't want where people go to
enjoy themselves. Competition and striving are the opposite of what
most people want to belong to a private club for.
b) Being rejected as an actor or writer is different than being
rejected as a member of a club you pay to belong to. Youre forgetting,
T A, what purpose the Castle serves for the VAST MAJORITY of its
members. As much as they thrive on the contributions of pros like
yourself, you thrive on their interest and dollars.
Msg #3494 Dated 1:18:03 05-25-91 3479 <--> 3507
From: EVAN KATZ
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MY LIFE AND TIMES
This interpretation of the Castle's purpose, I suspect, rest with a
minute minoroty of its members. Certainly they would be a minority if
they ever though that serving magic would ever impinge on the things
they do at the Castle -- enjoy themselves.
Msg #3495 Dated 1:20:20 05-25-91 3480 <--> 3599
From: EVAN KATZ
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: WANTED
I understand what YOU'VE been saying, which has been REALTIVELY
measured. You're not the most guilty here of amateur-bashing.
Implcit in many of your arguments, however, is an elitism that can't
help but alienate amateurs to some extent. Grace is valued under
pressure -- it is also valued from people in positions of respect or
power.
Msg #3497 Dated 3:06:08 05-25-91 3428 <--> 3564
From: JERRY BURTON
To: EVAN KATZ (X)
Re: SO...WHEN???
So join already ! No big deal.
Msg #3498 Dated 3:06:14 05-25-91 3389 <-
From: JERRY BURTON
To: MARVIN STERN
Re: MEMORIAL DAY
If you see a big red scwihn beach cruiser go by on Balboa say hi,
I'll be in the vicinity biking the peninsula all day Monday. Have a
good one. This is to Marvin I'm not sure what the system will do with
it.
Msg #3499 Dated 3:06:22 05-25-91 3470 <--> 3504
From: JERRY BURTON
To: T A WATERS (X)
Re: MAGIC AS ART
Isn't it - think about what you just said !
--- END OF MAGIC-27 ---