MAGIC! - 31 


The following was compiled from the magician's message section of 
MAGIC!(tm).  MAGIC! is an electronic communications system for
magicians.  It may be accessed from any personal computer with a
modem by dialing US 818-896-7450.  Access is free, except for
normal telephone company charges.  New registrants must leave a
comment with their name, address, phone number and a brief resume
of their magic background to be considered for membership.  The
material herein should be treated as confidentially as other
magic information.  Copyright 1991 by MAGIC!, All rights reserved.

Please note that messages # 5000 through # 5003 were not public and
do not appear at the beginning of this file, and message # 5499 
was also not public and thus does not appear at the end of this 
file.


Msg #5004  Dated 13:34:44  06-06-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   MICHAEL AMMAR (X)
Re:   THE MAGIC OF

The following message from Bruce Sandercock was garbled.  The text
of the message appears below.  Replies should be directed to
Bruce.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Msg #5003-13 MAGIC!  Dated 11:51:15  06-06-91
From: BRUCE SANDERCOCK
To:   MICHAEL AMMAR
Re:   THE MAGIC OF

Happily received your new book from Burt Carpenter.  Really
appreciate you and Hannah taking the time to sign my copy.  It now
becomes the best book I own!  Glad to see that you will be at the
SAM convention.  I look forward to seeing Hannah and you at that
time.  Very best regards.
-----------------------------------------------------------


Msg #5006  Dated 13:42:49  06-06-91  -> 5020
From: MARTY SHAPIRO
To:   ALL
Re:   LECTURER WANTED

IBM Ring 63 in Greenville South Carolina is looking for a lecturer for
late summer or early fall.  If you are interested download my file
"Ringor infor on the deal.   We'd love to have you over.  marty

Msg #5007  Dated 14:12:15  06-06-91  -> 5015
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

I agree with you completely.  You've got the job!

Msg #5009  Dated 14:14:56  06-06-91  -> 5016
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Funny!

Yours?

Msg #5010  Dated 14:17:24  06-06-91
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   ALL
Re:   TABMAN GOETH

I'll be on the road til Sunday if anybody is looking for me. Will check
in when I get back to Spring Hill. Adios...........

Msg #5013  Dated 16:14:59  06-06-91  -> 5075
From: JIM SISTI
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   WHAT'S WRONG?

If you want a lecture on restaurant magic philosophy, let me know.
Sounds like fun.  Yes, the Noe Place address is the one.  Thanks
again...

Msg #5015  Dated 16:44:07  06-06-91  -> 5060
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Surprised to hear that you think the Simon Aronson book is boring; my
reaction was quite the opposite.

Msg #5016  Dated 17:06:39  06-06-91  5009 <--> 5056
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

The Stock Line or the New Reply?

Msg #5020  Dated 17:21:39  06-06-91  5006 <--> 5040
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   MARTY SHAPIRO
Re:   LECTURER WANTED

Marty's file concerning the possibility of lecturing to Ring 63 in
Greenville, South Carolina is now in the files area as RING63.TXT

This is a fine, very hospitable group of magicians.  If you are a
lecturer with the possibility of being in that area, I suggest you
consider visiting Greenville.

Msg #5022  Dated 19:52:49  06-06-91  -> 5102
From: MARVIN STERN
To:   MIKE KING (X)
Re:   SHOWBIZ EXPO

I latched on to two extra tickets for the lectures, so no need to
worry, you have two.
Tomorrow we move into the Hilton, as we are staying downtown for the
length of the Show.  7 dia......

Msg #5023  Dated 19:59:37  06-06-91  -> 5042
From: SCOTT CRAM
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   JUGGLING & MAGIC

I apologize. I was unaware it was of your invention. When I started
magic, it was taught to me by another magician. I guess I assumed it
had been around for some time (incorrectly). I will post an apology on
this BBS immediately. Is there anything else I can do to pay for my
mistake?

Msg #5024  Dated 20:03:31  06-06-91
From: SCOTT CRAM
To:   ALL
Re:   APOLOGIES TO MAVEN

On a recent message, I, Scott Cram, put up a description of a trick I
incorrectly thought had been around for awhile. Later I found out that
it was an effect created by our own Max Maven called "Kirigami". I
would like to publicly apologize to Max Maven for unintentionally
uploading his effect, and thank him for pointing out my error. It was
taught tome in my beginning days without benefit of reference to the
originator. Again, I apologize full-heartedly to Max Maven. I abhor
stealing effects, and would not have put it up had I known it was not
in the "public domain" (Yes, I know in magic there's not really such a
thing, but it's the only term I could come up with).


Msg #5025  Dated 21:08:15  06-06-91  -> 5027
From: JOHN JOLLY
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Jerry, this is probably old news but I think part of the problem in
duplicate posts is that only two files are specified in IMP.  Maybe
there should be 3: Input, Text Output, Replys.  I think some are
uploading their text output file with replys appended to the end.
jj
.......................!poof!

Msg #5027  Dated 21:13:56  06-06-91  -> 5028
From: JOHN JOLLY
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I think you just might be right.  Course, by that time the message
base may be so large from accidentally repeated posts that David
will have to ZIP it!  
btw, I read that you were in broadcasting (think DL was, too and
some others.)  Count me in.  In fact I was automating KFDI-FM in
Wichita in '72; close to the time you were working on yours.
Were'nt those first "Carousel" driven rigs a hoot.  Those were the
days.  ('Djever have to do a complete time announce sequence...
2 30-min carts; odd and even minutes). FIE!
jj
.....................!poof!

Msg #5028  Dated 21:14:04  06-06-91  -> 5029
From: JOHN JOLLY
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Lo, is that the Jordanaires I here faintly in the background??
jj
..........................!poof!

Msg #5029  Dated 21:14:09  06-06-91  -> 5030
From: JOHN JOLLY
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

My X is off.  Always has been.  I've got a pretty good size buffer
and have never had trouble capturing before. (about 3 years now using
this Com Pkg. (Telemate)).  I'm baffled,too.
jj
........................!poof!

Msg #5030  Dated 21:14:14  06-06-91  -> 5031
From: JOHN JOLLY
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

WSN?  not sure. oops, just noticed that Tabby already answered this
one.
...................!poof!

Msg #5031  Dated 21:14:18  06-06-91  -> 5032
From: JOHN JOLLY
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

OK, bud.  I'll try those settings on this upload.
jj
........................!poof!

Msg #5032  Dated 21:14:35  06-06-91  -> 5043
From: JOHN JOLLY
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Jerry, those setting were a waste. This upload was done at 10ms line,
0 character, pace ascii 58 and seems to have worked. Thanks
jj
.........................!poof!

Msg #5034  Dated 21:25:19  06-06-91  -> 5047
From: PATRICE MOORE
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   SWAP MEET

Sorry, no mini dress... I was the one that looked like "mom"!

Msg #5037  Dated 21:39:23  06-06-91
From: PATRICE MOORE
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   JUNE GENII

Thank you, again, David!!

Msg #5038  Dated 21:46:32  06-06-91  -> 5050
From: SCOTT CRAM
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

I know i'm supposed to leave messages via the COmment selection from
the menu, but you'll understand why i'm doing this way. On a previous
message I uploaded a effect which turned out to be Max Maven's
"Kirigami" (read 5024) . I asked him if I could do anything to rectify
the situation (the trick doesn't work anyways). In an effort to better
the situation I would like to ask if you would take this message out
before you put up the next set of Magic Messages. When I read the note
from Max, about it being his effect, my face just turned pale! I am a
person with conciense (spelled right?) and would never steal an
illusion (or a routine) intentionally. Technically this could be
considered copyright infringement, which is a federal offense. Max
would be well within his rights to repremand me. I apologize yet again
to Max. I feel an error like this can't be made up simply by an
apology.

Msg #5040  Dated 22:05:57  06-06-91  5006 <-
From: MICHAEL AMMAR
To:   MARTY SHAPIRO
Re:   LECTURER WANTED

Hi Marty!  I still remember the hospitality from Greenville by you and
Debbie back in 1977 and 1978.  Hope all's well!  You might want to give
Doc Eason a call at 303-927-3197.  You can only get him in the off
season!

Msg #5042  Dated 22:15:23  06-06-91  5023 <--> 5172
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re:   JUGGLING & MAGIC

Apology accepted. In answer to your question, you can "pay for your
mistake" by taking more effort in the future to find out where ideas
and information come from. There is a tendency on the part of magicians
to satisfy their craving for new secrets with a fervor that causes them
to lose sight of the fact that magic is created by people -- it doesn't
just spring into existence.

A topic of discussion on this board has been the question as to why the
general public has such low respect for magic. I think one of the
reasons is probably that magicians themselves have nowhere near enough
respect for magic.

You know the old adage about those who do not know history being doomed
to repeat it? Well, a look at the magic scene provides ample evidence
of the truth of that statement.

No one, myself included, can be expected to be omniscient. However, I
think one ought to feel a personal obligation to try to learn the
background of a piece of magic; otherwise, how can we possibly
progress?

Msg #5043  Dated 22:44:43  06-06-91  5029 <--> 5044
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JOHN JOLLY
Re:   RDMAGIC

"Strange things are happening..." - Red Buttons.  Have been hearing
some reports of strange line noise all over the world.  I haven't
checked the sunspot reports, but that is a possible source.  As to
XON/XOFF, I'm not sure of the advantage of having it off.  There is a
great advanged, however, to having a large buffer.

P.S. - Yeah, I remember the odd/even time carts.  Worked AM at a place
with automated FM.  We'll all have to get together sometime and share
war stories.

Msg #5044  Dated 22:48:07  06-06-91  5030 <--> 5045
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JOHN JOLLY
Re:   RDMAGIC

Yep, WSN.  Remember WAPE - the Great Ape - in Jacksonville?

Msg #5045  Dated 22:49:13  06-06-91  5032 <--> 5053
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JOHN JOLLY
Re:   RDMAGIC

Hey!  Those are MY settings!  Guess that in the final docs we'll have
to suggest some alternatives for different comm package/modem
combinations.

Msg #5047  Dated 22:51:45  06-06-91  5034 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PATRICE MOORE (X)
Re:   SWAP MEET

Should I assume that you too saw the gal in the red mini?  I was
wearing my MAGIC! button and my "classically conservative attire" --
green pants, pink shirt and camel hair jacket.  We'll have to set up
signals next time 'cause I'm really looking forward to meeting you.  I
know you won't get this for a couple of days after it happens, but I
may try to give Stan a call in the next couple of days - I have a
"blockbuster" idea to share with him.

Msg #5050  Dated 22:58:49  06-06-91  5038 <--> 5173
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

I don't know if you read the letter from Max to me regarding the
effect.  I asked him if he would prefer to see it removed and he said,
"No."  I think that there are enough messages in which it is now clear
that the error was unintentional.  And, if you do not mind having been
an example, I feel that if it can be packaged in the files it will
serve, along with the surrounding messages, to clarify what happened.
If we delete it, then we should also delete the other messages about
it.

The deletion of the message is, however, totally up to you.

Msg #5053  Dated 23:28:13  06-06-91  5043 <--> 5054
From: RICHARD HART
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Just heard on the 11:00 news tonight that the earth IS suffering from
geomagnetic storms caused by solar flares.  Line noise will in some
instances be increased.

Keep yer heads down!

Msg #5054  Dated 23:33:59  06-06-91  5053 <--> 5058
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Thanks for the info!  From modem calls placed to systems around the
World during the last couple of weeks, I'd kinda figured that the sun
was in a "hot" cycle.

But this could be good news for some...

WAYNE POWERS:  Go get that Chop Cup and put it up on the roof!


Msg #5056  Dated  0:11:19  06-07-91  5016 <--> 5061
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

The new reply!

Msg #5058  Dated  0:17:03  06-07-91  5054 <--> 5064
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Actually, if Wayne managed to magnatize the thing without trying, I
don't know if sending him up on the roof during high sunspot activity
is such a good idea!

Msg #5060  Dated  0:22:00  06-07-91  -> 5066
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Tabby--

Thanks a lot for your thoughts.  I really don't understant why people
are so loath to upload their thoughts here.

I agreed with you just about one-hundred percent.  Just wanted to share
some minor thoughts...

1.  Calling the Conjuror's Monthly Reprints "expensive"?  Are you
kidding?  Just how much is one great effect worth?  Let alone ten, or
even twenty.  How about a piece of history, which is what you're paying
for... Think you're way off base on this one, Tabman.

2.  Aronson's book "boring?"  I don't know, Tabby, we must have read
different books.  I was up all NIGHT analyzing the guys mathematical
formulas.  I read this thing to laymen at my Passover Seder, and THEY
thought is was amazingly interesting.  Think again on this one, Tabby,
I really think you missed the boat here.

3.  Ammar's book "satisfying?"  Tabby, this word conjurs up visions of
too-large-to-eat hamburgers, and particularly well-cooked corn on the
cob.  I don't know, Tab...

4.  The works of Alex Emsley "fascinating?"  Excuse me, but I think you
should reserve this word for occasions that call for it.  Sure it's a
great book, but couldn't you have thought of a less distanced word than
fascinating?  What does this MEAN?

5.  Calling Thavant "worthit?"  Excuse me, but have you ever heard of
the space bar?  It's located right below the "x" through the "." key.
 You use it in-between words to show they're different words.

Anyway, aside from that, as I said before, I agree with everything you
said COMPLETELY.

Thanks for your thoughts, buddy!

Msg #5061  Dated  0:35:16  06-07-91  5056 <--> 5225
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Far as I know, it is mine.  Thanks for the comments.

Msg #5064  Dated  0:38:19  06-07-91  5058 <--> 5070
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

True!  On the other hand, we could send him up on my roof.  Worse comes
to worse, I could use a couple of weeks of free cable television.

Msg #5066  Dated  0:43:50  06-07-91  5060 <--> 5201
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

"Worthit" seemed relevant to "Thavant."  After all, it is in the lithp
series.

Msg #5068  Dated  0:45:22  06-07-91  -> 5079
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

MAGIC! continues to grow!  We have a lot of new members, and there
are now about 100 to 125 new messages a day.  It has been
suggested that we consider creating multiple sections, so that
messages and files can be divided according to interest.

For those who are not familiar with sections, they are like
mini-MAGIC! systems dedicated to a particular topic.  Just as an
example, there could be a section for "close-up magic," another
for "stage illusions," etc.

MAGIC! has the ability to provide multiple sections.  As a matter
of fact, I think it has the best section capability of any system
around.  Unlike some other systems which require you to switch
from section to section to see new messages and files, MAGIC!
"knows" which sections you are in and automatically displays all
of the messages and files in all of your sections seamlessly.
When you reply to a message or append to a message, MAGIC!
automatically directs the message to the right section.  When
you list the files, you see all of the files for all of the
sections you are in.  The only time you are asked for a section
number is when you are starting a brand new thread or when you are
uploading a new file.

Right now, because MAGIC! is private, assignment to sections has
to be done by the sysop (me), so having sections turned on or off
would be semi-permanent.  But that could be changed so that you
could select or deselect sections at anytime.

Having sections only works if:

   o  People keep the messages and files in the different sections
      "tidy."  In the example above, if conversations about
      close-up magic start appearing in the stage illusions
      section, then the whole concept is destroyed.

   o  All members do not opt to be in all sections.  If everyone
      is in every section, then nothing has changed.  The overall
      result is then the same as all messages and files being in
      one section.

I'd like to get some membership input on the idea of having
different sections of MAGIC!  I would appreciate it if you would
consider:

   o  How you might like to see sections organized.  What should
      sections be organized around?

   o  Which sections you would choose NOT to be included in.



Msg #5069  Dated  0:46:42  06-07-91  -> 5080
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

As some of you know from a few of my previous messages, I've been
reading Stephen W. Hawking's "A Brief History of Time."  A most
interesting book!

There is, of course, the scientific aspect of the work, along with
Hawking's own comments and philosophy.  I also found it
interesting because I've always felt that science is a somewhat
rebellious child of magic.  Much of scientific methodology and
practice came from the experiments of wizards and alchemists.
Science doesn't like to remember that, but I think that from our
perspective it is nice to see how the child is doing.

There was another aspect of the work which impressed me very much
and that is the extent to which performance magic is based not
just on a "suspension of disbelief," but on a suspension of
physical law.  Granted, it is easy to see that in a levitation,
but how about in a card trick?

Permit me, for a moment, to quote from Hawking:

"Imagine a cup of water falling off a table and breaking into
pieces on the floor.  If you take a film of this, you can easily
tell whether it is being run forward or backward.  If you run it
backward you will see the pieces suddenly gather themselves
together off the floor and jump back to form a whole cup on the
table.  You can tell that the film is being run backward because
this kind of behavior is never observed in ordinary life.  If it
were, crockery manufacturers would go out of business.

"The explanation that is usually given as to why we don't see
broken cups gathering themselves together off the floor and
jumping back onto the table is that it is forbidden by the second
law of thermodynamics.  This says that in any closed system
disorder, or entropy, always increases with time.  In other words,
it is a form of Murphy's law: Things always tend to go wrong!  An
intact cup on the table is a state of high order, but a broken cup
on the floor is a disordered state.  One can go readily from the
cup on the table in the past to the broken cup on the floor in the
future, but not the other way around.

"The increase of disorder or entropy with time is one example of
what is called an arrow of time, something that distinguishes the
past from the future, giving a direction to time.  There are at
least three different arrows of time.  First, there is the
thermodynamic arrow of time, the direction of time in which
disorder or entropy increases.  Then there is the psychological
arrow of time.  This is the direction in which we feel time
passes, the direction in which we remember the past but not the
future.  Finally, there is the cosmological arrow of time.  This
is the direction of time in which the universe is expanding rather
than contracting."

OK, now lets look at that card trick.  "Pick a card [disorder]...
Now place it anywhere in the deck [more disorder]...  Now I
shuffle the deck [increased disorder]...  Now here is your card!
[high order!].  An even stronger case could be made with Triumph -
disorder to high order.

In reference to the psychological arrow of time, obviously
predictions and many mentalism effects run counter to the
scientific "law."

No wonder the child rebels!

I think that when we discuss the art of performance magic, we
should consider suspension of physical law as a part of the
performance.  I would recommend the book as a source of magic
inspiration.

P.S. - I'm still working on an example to counter the cosmological
arrow.  But Hawking does make a number of references to balloons!

*The excerpts are from Hawking, Stephen W., "A Brief History of
Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes," New York: Bantam Books,
1988, ISBN 0-553-05340-X.  Their appearance here is in the context
of a review.


Msg #5070  Dated  0:50:08  06-07-91  5054 <--> 5076
From: RICHARD HART
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Yup, looks like old Sol has got the hiccoughs again!

WAYNE POWERS:  Don't, repeat, DON'T put that chop cup on the roof!
               Your luck, it'll get degaussed, but now it'll be
               r a d i o a c t i v e !

Msg #5072  Dated  1:54:12  06-07-91  -> 5073
From: T A WATERS
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   MORE

No, no -- we NEED all those people to support the illegal drug
industry.

Msg #5073  Dated  1:55:10  06-07-91  -> 5074
From: T A WATERS
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MORE

I agree.  Clearly we have differing views as to art and its function --
and discussing art is about as fruitful as discussing religion, at
least in the general sense.

Msg #5074  Dated  2:10:37  06-07-91  5073 <--> 5117
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   MORE

Fruitful?  Perhaps we should continue the discussion off-line over
lunch sometime - then we could include throwing things off the
Festalbord as a part of the process.

Msg #5076  Dated  2:41:35  06-07-91  5025 <--> 5077
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   JOHN JOLLY
Re:   RDMAGIC

The Text Output (from F5) is used to strip out the system data from
a log file. If you use this function, you should then got to F10,
to reset your INPUT to the newly created (stripped) text file.
.
The create index function strips just the Msg line, from, to, and
ref line from an input file - after using RDMAGIC for a while I find
I rarely (read never) use this function. It's easier to just search
the concatenated magic-xx.zip files into one large file and just sear
ch that.
.
The reply file (the output file specified in F6) is a separate file,
the only way anyone could mix the text output file with the replies
is by doing TWO distinct ASCII UPLOADS. The is a way to send duplicat
e replies however. If you use F6 to create some replies, log back
into the BBS and uoload them AND then create some additional replies
WITHOUT SPECIFYING a different output file the second batch of replie
s will be concatenated (added to the end of the old reply file), so
when you go to upload the new messages, the old ones on the front-end
of the file GET ENTERED A SECOND TIME. This is a cockpit error that
everyone that uses RDMAGIC (AKA IMP) should be aware of. The reasonin
g behind the concatenation approach was that you may generate replies
to a given download in multiple sessions and would not be forced to u
se multiple files or have to upload each reply immediately after you
create it. I can always change it so that the output (reply) file,
always starts anew (thus killing the prior replies) if the majority
of the users think more along these lines.

Msg #5077  Dated  2:42:00  06-07-91  5043 <--> 5078
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Could be the rare alignment of Jupiter, Mars, and Venus that is
in the process of occuring. Look East in the early evening the next
2 weeks and you will see a very rare event. On the 15th Jupiter, Mars
, and Venus will be within 2 degrees of each other. Let's see what
happens then.

Msg #5078  Dated  2:42:07  06-07-91  5045 <--> 5082
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

That's quite likely. I am now running PCPLUS and find it reacts to
the BBS echo a lot differently than Procomm 2.4.3. The line & char
pacing is the same, as is the pace char. I think ALL packages should
58 (ASCII :) as their pace character, and the lin/char pacing will
vary depending on the speed of the comm package. PCPLUS is considerab
ly faster than Procomm, which probably accounts for the cleaner
uploads I've been experiencing.
.
I need to call the Stouffer pretty quick what's your schedule ?

Msg #5079  Dated  2:42:17  06-07-91  5068 <--> 5086
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

Two sections, Magic and BS. Unfortunately, its sometimes hard to
separate the two.
.
The other problem is that most people that use IMP want to download
everything and just skip past the stuff they aren't interested in, so
IMP users will want to be members of all sections. It might help
if the replies could be directed to different sections, so that the
threads could remain a bit cleaner, but I'm sure people will use the
service effectively.
.
The threads seem to wander off onto all kinds of subjects and lose
something in the process, but hey this is interactive literature so
the story has many authors with varying story lines all intermingled.
.
Hmmmmmph !
.
Burton the Bizarre

Msg #5080  Dated  2:42:32  06-07-91  5069 <--> 5088
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

Yes it is a good book, I also enjoyed it. Your comment brings to mind
a discussion I had with Norman Glbreath the other night. We were
discussing theis very topic, magic as a means of violating physical
law. He was dismayed at the response his red, blu, yellow, and white
magnetism routine gets from the general lay audience.
.
If you're not familiar with it its in the April 89 Genii, but briefly
he shows a red, blue, and yellow magnet with corresponding colored
disks. The red magnet willonly pick up the red disk, the blue-blue, e
tc. The final is a white magnet that will not pick up any single disk
but when the three are combined (i.e. white being made up of the 3
primary colors) it picks up all three.
.
He had people come up afterward and say, "Gee, that was interesting I
didn't know there was colored magnetism". They didn't see it as
violating physical law, because they didn't know the physical law
that was supposed to be being violated, and thus to them it wasn't
magic it was a demonstration of physics.
.
It quite an ingenious use of physics, but unfortunately only magic to
someone that knows that magnetism is color blind.

Msg #5082  Dated  7:41:56  06-07-91  5076 <--> 5083
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

If you wanted to get fancy, maybe you could automagically rename the
existing reply file to nnn.BAK when a new one is started.

Msg #5083  Dated  7:44:14  06-07-91  5077 <--> 5084
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

"When the moon is in the seventh house,
 and Jupiter aligns with Mars,
 Then peace will guide the planets
 and love will guide the stars."

I think it is from My Fair Lady.  Or was it a Gilbert and Sullivan
tune?

Seriously, thanks for the info.  You going to Hawaii next month for the
eclipse?

Msg #5085  Dated  8:03:25  06-07-91  5054 <--> 5087
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Sorry, David...that chop cup is in no condition to be placed
anywhere...maybe I could sweep it up and SPRINKLE it on the roof, if
that's any help!
'Wayne.

Msg #5086  Dated  8:00:20  06-07-91  5079 <--> 5165
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

I think you are really saying that additional sections will only
complicate things because everyone will still want to access
everything.  I don't mind the digressions, unless they get too far from
magic.  But sometimes it would help if the threads were cleaner.  You
seriously gotta teach IMP to start new threads!

By the way, I've been doing some checking.  While we can call the
executable code IMP (no ! mark - makes it easier to use), I think we
will have to call the package IMP! (exclamation mark).  There is some
evidence that IMP was used by a company named Icarus for "Integrated
Mortician's Package."  Wouldn't want the two to get confused in small
towns where they have combination pizza parlour/magic shop/mortuaries.

Also, should the newest IMP file you uploaded by substituted for the
current RDMAGIC.ZIP?  Until the real version 1.0, with documentation,
comes out, I'd prefer not to name the file IMP on here.


Msg #5087  Dated  8:08:18  06-07-91  5058 <--> 5089
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

In fact, my homeowner's policy strictly prohibits me from being on the
roof during sunspot activity!
Those of you who are spreading rumors that I sleep facing True
North...cut it out!  I always sleep facing Magnetic North!
'Way-zzzzzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzz-ne.

Msg #5088  Dated  8:12:38  06-07-91  5080 <--> 5095
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

The effect sounds interesting, but I think you are right - the ordinary
audience will get totally lost in it.  Sometimes magi get too carried
away with the concept or technique and forget that someone has to
understand it.  Also, when close-up props depart too far from ordinary
objects, I think that people don't see any "real magic," they just
wonder why someone is carrying all this weird stuff around.  Maybe
there is a "rule" here that says "The more ordinary the props, the more
spectacular the effect."

Msg #5089  Dated  8:18:29  06-07-91  5085 <--> 5090
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

NO!  I'd be too likely to get slivers when I walk around up there at
night.

Msg #5090  Dated  8:19:39  06-07-91  5087 <--> 5091
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Er, isn't it that you are supposed to sleep with your HEAD closest to
Magnetic North?  Think we'll have to ask Burton.

Msg #5091  Dated  8:25:55  06-07-91  5090 <--> 5092
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I start out that way but, by morning, I find myself flat against t he
wall facing Magnetic North.  After my regular morning degaussing, I'm
alright for a while.
'WaynnnnnNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNORTH-NORTH-NORTH-NORTH-NORTH-Nnnnnne.


Msg #5092  Dated  8:48:25  06-07-91  5091 <--> 5109
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

It all has to do with quantum mechanics.  I think you have too many red
quarks in your diet.

Msg #5095  Dated 11:38:29  06-07-91  5069 <--> 5096
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

Cool message -- perhaps you could post it as a file in the file
subsystem?  This would make is more permanent...

Msg #5096  Dated 11:44:51  06-07-91  5069 <--> 5099
From: MARVIN STERN
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

Remember, that when you shoot the cup falling, it must be shot at
high speed, so that when projecting it, it is in slow motion.
Otherwise you can't tell if it going this-a-way or that-a -way.

Msg #5097  Dated 11:47:48  06-07-91
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (X)
Re:   SECTIONS I

I intend to try and compose some more elabore, thought-out suggestions
for the section system, specifically specifics, but here's a thought
that might be possible unless limited by the software.

I don't think people have the discipline necessary over the longterm to
successfully segregate their messages into sections.  It's just not
human nature.  There would be spillovers constantly, and your job would
get HUGE, trying to keep everything in the right place...

Include a prompt system as part of the process of replying or entering
a message.  That way you'd HAVE to ask yourself where the message
belonged, in what section, because the system would be asking you!

Msg #5098  Dated 14:23:42  06-07-91  -> 5101
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Some more specific ideas re sections:

SOFT/HARDWARE -- There should definitely be a section for all software
and hardware discussion, as this is stuff that either is or isn't
relavant to people.

STAGE-CLOSE-UP -- Twp different sections.  Actually, if I feel the
pulse of the board right, maybe it should be "Close-up" and "All
others."  Most discussion seems to be close-up, but there are
definitely people (including myself) how just aren't that interested in
stage stuff.

REVIEWS -- Of books, tapes, effects, convetions, lectures.... Only
problem with this section is that I really believe most everybody would
subscribe to it.

Also, general stuff that's real important would go out as announcements
into the default "General" section which everybody HAS to subscribe to.
 A good example would be when RDMAGIC is perfected, and there's solid
doc on it -- at that point a notice would be put in the general area,
giving people complete details, or maybe just referring to the
appropritae section just for this single purpose...

And, as someone already noted, it would be nice to be able to sift out
some of the funny, affectionate patter and jesting that goes on between
folks (does the word "barbecue" mean anything to you?).  This is great
stuff, and is essential to the health of the board, but when you've got
upwards of a hundred messages a day, you have to start thinking that
maybe everybody just doesn't want to read twenty messages on puns or
whatever...  This is a toughy, as it's this very stuff that fuels
people's interest in the bbs...

Those are only thoughts so far.  I keep trying to break the discussion
on MAGIC! into categories in my head, but right now can come up with no
further.  I think the hard/software section would alleviate some
congestions for sure.  The others?  Maybe, maybe not...

Ta.

Msg #5099  Dated 15:01:21  06-07-91  5095 <--> 5100
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

Thanks, Evan!  Will think about placing it in the text files.
Certainly will put it into MAGIC-30.

Msg #5100  Dated 15:04:09  06-07-91  5096 <--> 5127
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   MARVIN STERN (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

I have a friend who has a 4,000 fps camera.  Will that be OK?

Missed you at lunch today.  Even Greg McKay stopped by.  And Wayne
Powers introduced us to his guest - nice fellow named Jonnathan
Winters.  (Really!).  Where was you?

Msg #5101  Dated 15:06:31  06-07-91  5098 <--> 5166
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Great suggestions, Thanks!  Appreciate your work in putting it all
together.  Want to see what others think.

Msg #5102  Dated 15:50:57  06-07-91  5022 <-
From: MIKE KING
To:   MARVIN STERN (X)
Re:   SHOWBIZ EXPO

Thank you sir.  Nice to here from you.  Thanks for the tix, they will
indeed get use.  You are a gentleman and a sch...sch...smart guy.
Maybe we can do the 'ol seven 'o diamonds on a few at the Showbiz Expo.

Msg #5104  Dated 16:13:17  06-07-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   CHARLIE RANDALL (X)
Re:   MAGIC! LUNCHEON

It was GREAT to be with you for lunch today!  Hope you made it to your
plane and got home OK.  Hurry back!

Msg #5106  Dated 16:14:42  06-07-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   THE AMMAR BOOK

Ha-ha, ho-ho, he-he! (Dancing around terminal) - It's here!  It's here!
It's finally here!  UPS just brought my copy (#86) of "The Magic of
Michael Ammar."  Hard to tear myself away from it long enough to enter
the message - but I wanted everyone to know that at long last I will
get to read what all of you have been raving about.  Even a quick
look-through tells me that this is SOME book - Wow!

P.S. - I do kinda wish Louis had put the poster in a little tube or
something - it looks kinda all gnarly.

Msg #5109  Dated 16:52:51  06-07-91  5092 <--> 5111
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Yeah, quantum mechanics are the problem, alright...but without quantum
mechanics, how the hell are you supposed to get your quantum repaired??

Msg #5111  Dated 17:47:40  06-07-91  5109 <--> 5115
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Buy a disposable quantum, Wayne.  They aren't exactly biodegradable,
but they aren't a problem in landfills.

Msg #5112  Dated 17:48:15  06-07-91  -> 5116
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   INSIDE MAGIC MAKES NEWS!


            EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH STAN ALLEN!

MAGIC! is first to announce that later this summer there will be
a MAJOR change at INSIDE MAGIC.  According to STAN ALLEN, the last
issue in newsletter format will be the August issue.  Starting in
September, look for a new 48 to 64 page 8-1/2" x 11" monthly
MAGAZINE with a new name!  The formal announcement will be at the
PCAM convention here in California with details to appear in the
July issue of Inside Magic.

Current subscribers will be the winners as their subscriptions
will "roll over" to the new magazine on a one-for-one basis.  And
Stan will stand behind his money back guarantee if present
subscribers are not satisfied.

The new magazine will continue to provide coverage of what is
going on in the world of magic.  There will also be features,
columns, and effects.  The effects column will be edited by
RICHARD KAUFMAN.  Other columns will include some by MAGIC!
members.

As a part of the subscription effort, there will be a book,
entitled Square One, featuring contributions by MICHAEL WEBER,
JIM STEINMEYER, EUGENE BURGER, MIKE CAVNEY, TOMMY WONDER and
others.  MAGIC! is mentioned in the book.  The book will NOT be
distributed except to subscribers to the new magazine.  Current
Inside Magic subscribers who extend their subscriptions will also
receive a copy.

Msg #5113  Dated 17:49:20  06-07-91  -> 5137
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   MAGIC IN SPACE!

It isn't exactly confirmed by NASA, but watch for a bit of SPACE
MAGIC during the current shuttle mission!  Mike Buzzian,
astronaut/amatuer magician is carrying the props and may do
something in the next day or two.  The Space Magic was arranged by
Harry Blackstone, Jr. and some of the physical arrangements were
done by MAGIC!'s own Charlie Randall!  All of us are hoping that
at the critical moment things don't float in all the wrong
directions!  Who says magic isn't reaching new heights?

Msg #5114  Dated 17:55:48  06-07-91  -> 5215
From: RANDY LUND
To:   PATRICE MOORE (X)
Re:   MISC. STUFF

No, my answer to my riddle is.........
.
Sex is like magic because...while you can do it yourself, it is a whole
lot more fun with others.
.
Randy

Msg #5115  Dated 17:59:02  06-07-91  5111 <--> 5119
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I dunno...
disposable...refillable
king-size...regular
convertible...hard-top
pedigreed...mutt
Original Flavor...New Peppermint-BubbleGum...
...I can't make up my mind...
...guess I'm just in a quantum quandary!!!
'W.

Msg #5116  Dated 18:05:40  06-07-91  5112 <--> 5124
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   INSIDE MAGIC MAKES NEWS!

Sounds like exciting times ahead...
...a return to the days of several quality magic publications!
'Wayne.

Msg #5117  Dated 18:12:52  06-07-91  5072 <--> 5118
From: RICHARD HART
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   MORE

Yeah, you're right, T.A., otherwise how would the C.I.A. make any
money?

Msg #5118  Dated 18:14:01  06-07-91  5074 <--> 5120
From: RICHARD HART
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MORE

If you're gonna start throwing things, David, please include chucking
that "art" in front of the Castle down to Hollywood Blvd.

Please!

Msg #5119  Dated 19:05:30  06-07-91  5115 <--> 5122
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Quark-Quark!  (Quantum version of Har!).  Can't wait to see you in a
starring role in a commercial for 'em.

Msg #5120  Dated 19:06:48  06-07-91  5118 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   MORE

Had that very thought on leaving the Castle today.  I'd never noticed
it before but the "thing" DOES have a pig's tail!  That is NO cat - it
is, pure and simple, a put-down of magicians.

Msg #5121  Dated 20:24:18  06-07-91  -> 5525
From: BRUCE SANDERCOCK
To:   MARVIN STERN (X)
Re:   CASTLE LUNCH

It may be hard to believe, but we had a great time at lunch today,
without you.  I hope you rented something this weekend.

Msg #5122  Dated 20:34:41  06-07-91  5119 <--> 5160
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I can.  (Wait, that is.)

Msg #5127  Dated 21:50:50  06-07-91  5069 <--> 5129
From: MICHAEL AMMAR
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

Didn't he go on to propose universes that exist where time moves
backwards - where you would actually see effects preceding causes?

Msg #5129  Dated 21:57:27  06-07-91  5127 <--> 5131
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   MICHAEL AMMAR (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

He suggested the possibility of alternate universes where time moved
backwards.  I believe, however, that he did not include them in his
final resolution.

Msg #5131  Dated 22:54:50  06-07-91  5129 <--> 5134
From: T A WATERS
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

Wasn't it Pauli who suggested that a positron was a proton traveling
backward in time?

Msg #5132  Dated 22:56:03  06-07-91  -> 5133
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   ROUSER?

When we chatted at lunch today, did you say I was a "Rabble Rouser" or
a "Rebel Rouser?"

Msg #5133  Dated 22:59:12  06-07-91  5132 <--> 5135
From: T A WATERS
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   ROUSER?

A ruble raiser...

Msg #5134  Dated 23:00:58  06-07-91  5131 <--> 5141
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

Most likely.

Msg #5135  Dated 23:01:46  06-07-91  5133 <--> 5216
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   ROUSER?

Ah, so my tossing that peach must have caused a fun-ding.  Perhaps in
the Chevy seats?

Msg #5137  Dated  0:01:39  06-08-91  5113 <--> 5140
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   MAGIC IN SPACE!

A scan of the STS-40 "Magic Mission" Crew Patch is now in the files
area.  The downloadable file is named   STS40.PCX   and the image is in
black and white.  The image is a 640x503x2 and should be viewable on
EGA/VGA systems.

Msg #5138  Dated  0:17:05  06-08-91  -> 5152
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   POSTER

Just came across the contact information regarding the poster showing
the "Best of Magic" performers:
                                    Marvin's Magic
                                    P.O. Box 1000
                                    London N17 ORW, England
The mail-order price on the poster
in England is five pounds, which is just under ten dollars. Seems to me
if you sent them twelve or thirteen bucks it would cover the postage to
the U.S.

Msg #5140  Dated  0:47:21  06-08-91  5137 <--> 5285
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   MAGIC IN SPACE!

Digitized COLOR images of the STS-40 "Magic Mission" Crew Patch are now
in the files area.  There are three translations:

   STS40.LBM   -   For Amiga
   STS40.MAC   -   For MacIntosh MacPaint
   STS40-C.PCX -   320 x 200 x 256 color pcx for MS-DOS

These are low resolution images, but if anyone chooses to download
them, I'd be interested in comments on how they appear on the different
computers.

Msg #5141  Dated  1:17:19  06-08-91  5134 <--> 5524
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

Hawking defines a positron as "the (positively charged) antiparticle of
the electron."  In Brief History he makes only one reference to Pauli
and that is in regard to Pauli's "exclusion principle."  He does
provide the annecdotal information that "He was the archetypal
theoretical physicist: it was said of him that even his presence in the
same town would make experiments go wrong!"

Could have been just the guy to send Wayne's chopped Chop Cup to!


Msg #5143  Dated  6:08:29  06-08-91  -> 5151
From: ARNAUD VANRIETSCHOTEN
To:   ALL
Re:   FISM ON MAGIC!

FISM is getting near.Within one month all magical eyes will be
focused on Lausanne, Switzerland. Of course MAGIC!-NL will be
there to report all the hottest news.
Who is becoming the new world champion??? What is the biggest
drama on stage?? What's new at the dealers?? What is the latest
rumor??? MAGIC!-NL will keep you up-to-date, every day.
The MAGIC!-NL express will leave for Lausanne on Sunday 7th july
from Amsterdam and is expected to arrive at destination at around
18:00hrs local CH time. You complete reporter crew will stay at
Hotel Regina.
.
A large group of MAGIC!-NL members will be at the scene to report
you about everything. We have Arnoud van Delden, co-sysop and known
in Holland as the dutch Tabby Crabb (due to his high number of
logins). We also have Tommy Wonder and Dick Koornwinder and I will
drag them all behind my laptop to write their reports.
.
Of course also MAGIC!-US members on the FISM will not escape from
my laptop. I think their BBS brothers, left alone at the other side
of the pond, are very interested in their adventures in Heidi-land.
So if Mr. Biro, Mr. Maven, Mr. Ammar think they have some days off
from their BBS addiction, and are wrong!!!
I hope they are willing to take my laptop on their lap-top (it also
works in bars!!!) and do put their stories on flop.
.
David,
Some origanisational items:
- I plan to upload my stories every evening to MAGIC!-NL and will
  post them to the account MAGIC-US (password is same as the pass-
  word for the Lichtman acount). You can simply login to MAGIC!-NL
  by entering MAGIC-US as user name.
  By posting the reports to your account, you will receive the msg
  directly when you login, as the messagebase is checked if it has
  any messages for you, at login time.
  I think if you login at around 1200 noon LA time you can be sure
  the report from the previous day will be available. That's 3 o'
  clock in the night Swiss time and by then we should have finished
  the reports whatever state we are in then.
- I hope you can understand I will not be in the position to login
  to the US aswell. Calling trans Atlantic from a Hotel is ridicu-
  lous expensive.
  However I can understand some US members do have messages for
  brothers at the convention. Maybe you would be so kind to upload
  them, grouped in one message, to my attention on MAGIC!-NL, so I
  will take care they reach the persons they are send to.
  Please let me know on beforehand if you will upload them as a
  message (max 14K), or as a file (you can zip it if you want).
.
I really look forward to the cooperation and think this way the
BBS are prooving their existence in full extent.
.
All the best,
Arnaud

Msg #5148  Dated  8:43:41  06-08-91  -> 5156
From: MICHAEL AMMAR
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

I just remembered an effect which goes against the second law of
thermodynamics, or in other words, an effect in which the further you
progress, the more you reverse the effects of entropy.  It's Paul
Gertner's "Unshuffled".  In this effect, the more Paul shuffles, the
cards, the more they return to unshuffled order!  It's really a
wonderful thing!
If you haven't gotten to the parts where Hawking talks about the
effects of additional dimensions, you are in for some heavy,
fascinating thoughts!

Msg #5150  Dated 11:22:19  06-08-91  5112 <--> 5157
From: PATRICE MOORE
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   INSIDE MAGIC MAKES NEWS!

Nice, David. Thanks. Couple clarifications: Mike's name is spelled
Caveney. And at the beginning of the book, where are acknowledgements
are made, MAGIC! is credited as the first place Tommy Wonder's piece on
the Zombie appeared.
Thanks, again. Good talking to you!

Msg #5151  Dated 11:28:22  06-08-91  5143 <--> 5153
From: PATRICE MOORE
To:   ARNAUD VANRIETSCHOTEN (X)
Re:   FISM ON MAGIC!

Arnaud, have you any info on who is competing or appearing at FISM??
Two reasons for the question. One, I am going and curious. Two, we
could really use the information for our publication, Inside Magic.
Thanks!

Msg #5152  Dated 11:34:09  06-08-91  5138 <--> 5236
From: PATRICE MOORE
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   POSTER

I humbly apologize for sticking my nose in here, but on the last
mailing I received from Norm Nielsen was a listing for a few of the
Best of Magic posters. I believe they were selling for $10.

Msg #5153  Dated 12:45:17  06-08-91  5143 <--> 5237
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ARNAUD VANRIETSCHOTEN (X)
Re:   FISM ON MAGIC!

During FISM you can be sure that we will be checking in with MAGIC-NL
for all of the latest news!  You have lined up a superb reporting team.
There are several MAGIC! (U.S.) members who will be there and I hope
they will make contact with you and use your laptop computer to send
and receive messages.  We are really looking forward to this!  It will
allow MAGIC! and MAGIC-NL members around the World to join in and to
send messages back and forth.

And just before FISM gets rolling, there will be all of the activity
here in the U.S. - PCAM, IBM, and SAM.  I will be at the IBM Convention
and we are planning a complete computer set up - once again working to
provide images as well as all of the news.  The MAGIC! team at IBM will
include PETE BIRO, TABBY CRABB, BILL WELLS, JERRY BURTON, DAVID
LICHTMAN and many, many others.  We will be sending our stories and
pictures back to MAGIC! for routing to MAGIC-NL.

I myself will not be able to attend PCAM and SAM, but hopefully, we can
rely on those members who will be attending to keep us informed.  I do
hope that someone will a laptop or portable will be at those
Conventions (Anyone?).

Needless to say - this will be a busy electronic summer!

Msg #5154  Dated 12:54:46  06-08-91  -> 5532
From: BRUCE SANDERCOCK
To:   ALL
Re:   MAGIC IN MEXICO OR U.K.?

Thursday through Sunday, June 13-16, I will be checking out the new
Marriott in Puerto Vallarta.  Sun, Surf, and Sand is
O.K., but what I would really enjoy is meeting a resident compeer, or
seeing some local Magical performance.  Anyone have any suggestions.
The following week I will be in the U.K. from the 20th thru the
24th......Same thing applys here, except delete Sun, Surf, and Sand!

Msg #5156  Dated 13:03:51  06-08-91  5148 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   MICHAEL AMMAR (X)
Re:   A PHYSICS LESSON...

Thanks for the info on Paul Gertner's "Unshuffled."  Yes, it is
probably a perfect example of the suspension of the second law.  It is
still the cosmological arrow that gives me problems!

I've finished the book and yes, Hawking's additional dimensions were
certainly something to, uh, "grok."  He does a superb job of using an
analogy - but I still can't quite deal with little curled up
dimensions!  I'm having enough trouble with "finite with no
boundaries!"

Certainly, there is a lot of magic bound up in that book!

P.S. - Don't have much time for quantum mechanics right now -- I'm
stuck in this incredible book by some guy named... uh, Michael Ammar!
The essay on "In the Men's Hut" is incredible, superb, fantastic.

Msg #5157  Dated 13:10:32  06-08-91  5150 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PATRICE MOORE
Re:   INSIDE MAGIC MAKES NEWS!

Thanks for the info, Patrice.  Yes, I accidentally misspelled Mike
Caveney.  Sorry.  Fortunately, no one has noticed that I also, in the
"Magic Mission" piece, misspelled the name of another magician - it is
Bagian.

Msg #5158  Dated 15:20:49  06-08-91  -> 5189
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   BICYCLE DECKS

I'm almost reluctant to mention this...but CVS Pharmacy once again has
Bicycle Decks (Poker and Jumbo Pip) on sale for $1.09.

Msg #5159  Dated 16:26:02  06-08-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   MODEM CONNECTIONS

A few people have indicated that they have been having problems
connecting to some of the new MAGIC! modems.  I have just tested a
number of modem and speed combinations including

     2400 baud on a Practical Peripherals 9600SA
     2400 baud on a Practical Peripherals 2400SA
     1200 baud on a Practical Peripherals 2400SA
     1200 baud on a Hayes Smartmodem 1200
      300 baud on a Hayes Smartmodem 1200

All of these were able to connect to MAGIC! via the new modems.  I did
encounter some extraneous characters on the Hayes at 1200, but that
did not affect my connection.

I think there are a couple of things that might be tried:

   o  If you are using an autologon or script, BE SURE that you are
      waiting for a proper character prior to sending your name.  The
      "What is your name?" line ends in a question mark [?] so you
      might make sure that your script or autologon waits for the
      question mark prior to sending your name.

   o  If you dial in and get a warbling tone, WAIT
      In all my test cases, the modems with the intial warbling tone
      (the MAGIC! modems that can accept MNP protocols, etc.) took a
      few extra seconds following the "Connected" message to actually
      connect.  If your screen was blank and you just WAITED, the
      normal "Welcome to ECANET, What is your name?" prompt would
      appear in about 8 to 10 seconds.  If you pressed extraneous
      enter keys or other keys, you would end up not getting the
      normal prompt.

We are continuing to research different commands, but the above info
seems to hold true, and to help, at the moment.

Msg #5160  Dated 18:43:47  06-08-91  5083 <--> 5161
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Actually, have been giving it some thouhgt - I have several clients
over there and a friend of mine lives on his boat, so I could hang
for nothing. I'll have to wait until I get back from Baltimore, CT,
and NY to see what disasters I have to solve.

Msg #5162  Dated 18:44:03  06-08-91  5085 <--> 5163
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Why don't you grind it up and use the pieces in the Alchemists dream?

Msg #5163  Dated 18:44:09  06-08-91  5090 <--> 5164
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Right, your head should be pointing to magnetic north so that the
lines of force will realign all of the charges in your body overnight
Source is Yoga. You are also supposed to have a copper cup beside
your bed, which you fill with water just before retiring, and drink
first thing in the morning for a quick start.
.
If you really want to super-charge your psyche with cosmic energy
erect a copper pyramid over your bed, with a crystal at the power
point (i.e. the exact center). One face of the pyramid should face
magnetic north.
.
Burton the Bizarre.

Msg #5164  Dated 18:44:26  06-08-91  5122 <--> 5167
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Maybe you can be Quark-lite man.

Msg #5165  Dated 18:44:32  06-08-91  5086 <--> 5171
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

The latest version was called IMP replacing IMP!, RDMAGIC, and MAGIC
Let's agree on a pre-release name of RDMAGIC, and a final release
name of IMP! (containing IMP.EXE, MAGIC.HLP and a doc file) OK ??

Msg #5166  Dated 18:44:39  06-08-91  5101 <--> 5175
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Regarding filtering threads. I could add a strip function in RDMAGIC
that would delete the chit-chat type messages from a file so that
each person could strip the magic-xx.txt files to what interests
them. This would take the pressure off the BBS.
.
Another thought is to pull the threads off into a separate file,
you specify the RE part (e.g. A PHYSICS LESSON) and ALL messages in
that thread would be moved to another file, which you could then edit
down to keep just the messages in the thread you were interested in.
.
This way you could have a quick way of going back to just certain thr
eads. It's worth a try - if enough people think its useful I can add
it.
.
????????????

Msg #5167  Dated 18:49:11  06-08-91  5160 <--> 5168
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

If you don't have tickets by now you may have to swim!  Otherwise, it
sounds like a fine idea.

Msg #5169  Dated 18:51:27  06-08-91  5163 <--> 5170
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

How big does the pyramid have to be?

Msg #5170  Dated 18:51:52  06-08-91  5164 <--> 5179
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I don't know, Jerry.  He seems more like Quark-Dry to me.

Msg #5171  Dated 18:52:27  06-08-91  5165 <--> 5213
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

Agreed.  Will move IMP over to replace RDMAGIC.

Msg #5172  Dated 19:33:43  06-08-91  5042 <--> 5205
From: SCOTT CRAM
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   JUGGLING & MAGIC

Thank you very much. I will learn the history of my tricks from now on.
I think I might stick to uploading original (original? in magic?)
effects.

I agree with your statement about why the general public has little
respect for magic. I try to care about my magic.

By the way, if it's any help, I left a note to Dr. L asking if he would
leave the message with that effect in it out of the next set of MAGIC!
messages. I'm pretty sure his reply is the other message for me that's
waiting to be read.

Msg #5173  Dated 19:38:26  06-08-91  5050 <--> 5204
From: SCOTT CRAM
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

When you put it up as an example, I think you're right. Leave it in.
As far as enough messages being up to demonstrate that it was
unintentional, I guess you're right (Most of them are FROM me, and very
apologetic). As it happens, I didn't see Max's message to you. I did,
however, mention that I was going to read your reply next in my letter
to him.

Now a little wiser, I shall go back to being a good little MAGIC! user.
I'm VERY happy Max was so understanding about it. By the way, did you
ever figure out who the other two magicians who's real name was
"Goldstein" (remember the trivia quiz). I never did find out.

Msg #5175  Dated 19:53:34  06-08-91  5166 <--> 5186
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

I'm not really sure how much of the work could be done by RDMAGIC.

   o  Deleting "chit-chat."  How would RDMAGIC know?

   o  Relying on threads/RE:'s is NOT going to work.  Sometimes
      people start topical threads that turn to chit-chat.  At
      other times, chit-chat threads have turned topical.

Please note: "Chit-chat is in the eye of the beholder."

How about an RDMAGIC function that allows the entry of a new
thread/topic?

Msg #5179  Dated 22:02:55  06-08-91  5162 <--> 5202
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I did grind it up, Jerry...an unexpected breeze foiled my plans for
that pile of magnetic chop cup dust...it has collected in a heap on a
one-inch square of my scalp...that damn metal plate in my head now
looks like an unsightly metallic growth!  I'll never be able to get
through airport security again!
'W.

Msg #5185  Dated  0:15:13  06-09-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   RDMAGIC

The latest posted version of RDMAGIC is the June 3, 1991 version.  It
is in the files area as   RDMAGIC.ZIP

Msg #5186  Dated  1:22:36  06-09-91  5098 <--> 5187
From: DOUGLAS LARSON
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Don't forget our most memorable section.

The one that contains all references to Abbotts address!

Should  it be "Abbotts address" ??????

Msg #5187  Dated  1:24:43  06-09-91  5166 <--> 5188
From: DOUGLAS LARSON
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Jerry,

Just a note to remind you about the Esc key to get us out of the
searches we didn't intend to do.
thanks

Msg #5188  Dated  1:33:33  06-09-91  5186 <--> 5190
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DOUGLAS LARSON (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

So easy for you to just strike that key to the right of the colon; so
painful a blow for me to bear.

Msg #5189  Dated  1:40:33  06-09-91  5158 <-
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   BICYCLE DECKS

Buy at your own risk.

Msg #5190  Dated  1:44:09  06-09-91  5188 <--> 5235
From: DOUGLAS LARSON
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Life can be trying at times.  But know it was all in fun!

Msg #5191  Dated  1:43:29  06-09-91  -> 5193
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   ALL
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

I've been performing the popular "'WOW' Book Test" lately.  For those
not in the know, briefly, and w/out tipping the method:  Spec. has
choice of two books, determines # of pages in chosen book, chooses
aloud a number between 1 and that #, looks at first word on that page,
without anything else, magi gets it...

The effect works like a charm, and no one has tipped to the gimmick.
The question I'd like help answering, and which I think might lead to
an interesting discussion is this -- is telling the spec. his chosen
word without having him write it down TOO perfect?  I'm not worried
about this in regard to putting too much heat on the gimmick, like I
said, it's never been figured.  I'm just wondering if this is so
impossible it somehow makes it less magical?

This sounds silly, as most effects are structured to kill all avenues
of possibility.  Obviously, if the spectator things we could have done
it one specific way, we've failed.  BUT, if in this effect the spec.
writes down the word, but you make it clearly impossible that you could
have seen that word, does the effect become more magical because it's
not so far afield impossible.  Does it see more like mind reading with
the word written down, when in reality a genuine mind reader wouldn['t
need it written?

There's an interesting philosophical question somewhere in here, I
don't think I'm expressing it quite well.  But the "too perfect" theory
has been around a while, I just don't know how it applies in this and
other circumstances, and why it works, and if it works.

Any thoughts?

Msg #5192  Dated  1:50:16  06-09-91
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   ALL
Re:   ENIGMA

Yo.

Anyone actually own or see this close-up penetration effect "Enigma?"
 Seen a couple ads for it, and read Maven's review.  Curious as to any
more first-hand experience.

Msg #5193  Dated  2:17:00  06-09-91  5191 <--> 5244
From: RICHARD HART
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

I too, have long puzzled over the "too perfect" theory.  In fact I've
thought long and hard about how to present a mind reading show.  Ever
read Robert Silverberg's _Dying Inside_?  In case you haven't, it's
about a fellow who can read minds--makes his living off it--and how
he reacts as he slowly loses the power.  A masterful work, and good
source material for budding mentalists.

Imagine for a moment what it would be like if you could actually read
a spectator's thoughts:

    Mysto:  You sir, stand up please.  Your name is Herman Brown.  YOu
            live at 1331 Curson Ave.  Your wife's name is Thelma.
            You hate your boss--a Mr. Todd, I believe.  You think I'm
            a fake, but you'll believe me when I say that as a child
            your grandmother used to call you "Sneakers", am I right?
    Brown:  Y-y-yes.

This may be pure mind reading, but would you pay money to see this?
What does the average spectator think mind reading is?  A pure 100%
perfect display, or a grey area where occasionally, some tid-bit of
information is mystically obtained by the mentalist?

This thought leads us to a fork in the road.  If you are too perfect,
will the audience begin to wonder why you bother with these cheap
shows, when you could be making a fortune in Las Vegas or Wall Street?
Same feeling I get when I'm watching those late night teevee shows
where some clown is selling his "make a million in real estate" course.
If he really could make a bundle in real estate, why the hell is he
hawking his technique on the boob-tube?

Yet, if you're not perfect enough, how long are you going to be able to
stand the "lucky guess" comments?

  Falkenstein:  What am I holding now?
  Willard:      A gentleman's wallet.
  Falkenstein:  And what is in the wallet?
  Willard:      A balloon?
  Falkenstein:  Close enough.

As you can see by the excerpted dialogue above (one of my all-time
favorites, by the way) sometimes a less than "perfect" display of mind
reading can be made much more entertaining by the right patter.

So we walk a thin grey line.  Perfect, or less than?

I, for one, like to miss one once in a while.  I want to convey to my
audience that although I can read minds and see into the future, I
can't do it all the time.  Let them decide for themselves why I'm not
in Vegas.  After all, I'm only human.

I would be very interested in comments on this topic by our resident
pros.  Max, T.A.?

Msg #5201  Dated 12:43:42  06-09-91  5015 <--> 5211
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Herein lies the problem; I do not know Simon and have never seen him
work. Basically for me, the review is of the "read" and I did find
it stylistically "boring" to read. Herein also lies the basic failure
of most reviews, in my opinion, which is the personal bias of the
reviewer. If you write a book, then words become paramount as well as
the illustrations. From all reports, I would like Simon Aronson if I
had a chance to see his magic, but my review wasn't of his magic, but
of the book which I found a "boring" "read." Max, you have one of the
real magic minds on the planet and I would expect you to be able to
read through any stylistic or dialectic variances to get to the heart
of the matter. Certainly, the magic IS the heart of the matter, but
I couldn't get past the presentation. I tried to read the book on
several occasions and just couldn't get past the first few pages.
There ARE books on my shelves that have been read from cover to cover
several times. Two or three books pulled me in so profoundly, that
I spent a year learning all the effects contained therein. I have
to find a new copy of Super Subtle because I've "dogged" the copy I
have so much it's almost gone. There are others here that once I saw
the value of this particular book to me, I bought another copy early
on. The effectivness of a book may be judged on any ## of criterion.
If a book can pull me in and hold me and teach me and make me think
about what the writer was saying when I'm not reading, then that book
is particularly valuable TO ME. I know Aronson is great and that he
is a credit to magic, but The Aronson Approach didn't pull me in. In
fact it has the opposite effect. Each time I make a stab at it it
falls short, and I tried. After all, I purchased the book from a
dealer's reccomendation and laid my money down to "support" this
magical artist. Maybe I'll give him another chance. Tell me something
to look at and read deep into the text and I'll give it a shot.
Didn't mean to get so carried away but am just back from a "hell"
trip to Memphis. Only in Mem for a few hours. This part of the trip
was great.

Msg #5202  Dated 12:44:09  06-09-91  5027 <--> 5203
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   JOHN JOLLY
Re:   RDMAGIC

Yep, the carosel was a hoot. Amazing now looking back. Used 80
column punched cards to run 8 carosels. Totally depressed the on air
guys and one of them committed suicide. At that point I decided
computers were potentially bad and have devoted my life to finding
the mother of all computers and to destroying same. I am not, however
"in broadcasting" but have had a life long love affair with radio.
My specialty now is subliminal messaging and the combination of
timbre reduction and 1/f noise to induce the listener to respond in
a suggested way. The law allows certain usage, much of it negative
impact, but we look for only "positive" ways to ply.

Msg #5203  Dated 12:44:23  06-09-91  5028 <--> 5206
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   JOHN JOLLY
Re:   RDMAGIC

Stamps, who were post Jordanaires. I did get to do some work with
Hugh Baby of the Jordanaires in my formative years though.

Msg #5204  Dated 12:44:31  06-09-91  5038 <--> 5207
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

No doubt this has happened to everyone on here at some stage in their
magic careers. What it does is increase awareness to just who did
what and where credit is due. Don't be offended by Max, be thankful
that we all know. MAGIC! is serving a most beneficial service in
giving us the knowledge of where credit belongs and we can rest
easier that should any one invent something that it will be properly
credited to the author.

Msg #5205  Dated 12:44:40  06-09-91  5042 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   JUGGLING & MAGIC

Therein lies the beauty of open communications.

Msg #5206  Dated 12:44:45  06-09-91  5044 <--> 5210
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Sister station to the Big BAM!

Msg #5207  Dated 12:44:52  06-09-91  5050 <--> 5217
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

Please don't delete it. It is too important.

Msg #5210  Dated 12:45:07  06-09-91  5058 <--> 5218
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I think it's Waynes magnetic personality. Heck, even spoons stick to
ceramic coffee cups at his breakfast table.

Msg #5211  Dated 12:45:15  06-09-91  5060 <--> 5212
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Well, what I was trying to do was to get some reaction from "those
in the know" and at least now somebody that knows something is making
a stab at at least analyzing what I meant. In regard to your review
of my review, I would hardly call a dead cow sandwich "satisfying",
nor would I suggest that "boring" has anything to do with magic. What
I actually find fascinating about the Elmsley book is how they bait
you for Vol II suggesting that the best of his effects will be found
there right after I spent this cash to get "Vol I". I almost threw
up reading the introduction. In regard to Mr. Ammar's book being
satisfying; Yes, I am satisfied with my purchase and predict that
this work will have a much more lasting impact on magic than many
others touted as the book o the year. I imagine that Steinmeyer's
new stuff will fit into that catagory. The books by Max (and Max
will tell you what he thinks and wants you to do the same) are all
WORTH IT - yes, I have a space bar and it's not a place to drink on
the Discovery. I picked on these guys as I figured they could
"take it". One more thing. I would have paid more for the Conjuror's
Reprints just to have a complete file, however his costs were not all
that much on the project (no typesetting, etc) and he didn't even have
the "balls" to take apart another bound set to include an index of
the magazines. I wrote Richard on this and he sent me a flyer for
his new book.
-
Aside from that, I agree with everything you said.

Msg #5212  Dated 12:45:37  06-09-91  5066 <--> 5230
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

I bet Evan knew that. I hope Evan knew that.

Msg #5213  Dated 12:45:41  06-09-91  5068 <--> 5233
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

Well, I don't like sections unless you can provide a way to RC;*
the entire new message base from all sections. I think part of the
downfall of the magic section on CIS has been that it is so cumber-
some to use because you have to go through so many doors.

Msg #5215  Dated 12:45:54  06-09-91  5114 <--> 5413
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   RANDY LUND (X)
Re:   MISC. STUFF

How many others?

Msg #5216  Dated 12:45:58  06-09-91  5132 <--> 5277
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   ROUSER?

You don't bother me, so I guess it mustof been rabble.

Msg #5217  Dated 12:46:03  06-09-91  5173 <--> 5246
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   SCOTT CRAM (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

Marty and Spin.

Msg #5218  Dated 13:37:45  06-09-91  5210 <--> 5219
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Some of that chop cup dust must've gotten into the Maxwell House...
...now even the COFFEE is sticking to the coffee cups!
(Actually, my coffee ALWAYS sticks to the cups...but now I've got an
excuse!)
'W.

Msg #5219  Dated 13:47:59  06-09-91  5218 <--> 5250
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I meant to mail you some mail from Memphis, but alas was too hectic and
will mail from Charlotte hall tomorrow.

Msg #5220  Dated 13:48:34  06-09-91  -> 5247
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   ALL
Re:   BOOK BET

        I have a proposition for all you book reviewers out there
in MAGIC! Land. Here it is:
-
        I will put a list of what I consider to be the ten most
likely to be judged classic books published this (1991) year. I
will put my list up against anyone's at $1,000 per book. The
target "payoff" date will be December 31, 2016. I will pay you 1k
per book on your list at that date if time proves that any of
your books make the list if you will pay me 1k for each book on
mine. I will make this an open bet to any and all comers only
criterion is that they be members of MAGIC! as of the date of
this filing. Bets to be accepted today and our lists go public on
MAGIC! on Jan 1, 1992. Payoffs to be made over lunch at the
Castle or Mama Leone's on the quarter century (fiscal) mark
whichever place is still open. This bet is not assigned to heirs,
etc and only good if I am still alive (which I will be!). Bring
cash (not Burton's bills either).
-
Here is your chance to put your money in my mouth or mine in
yours. If the above restaurants are both closed, then over lunch
at the Dublin Hilton or on the Stranlier Ferry. Your call.
-
                                   tabwood bookman

Msg #5222  Dated 16:07:20  06-09-91  -> 5243
From: KEVIN MEADOR
To:   ALL
Re:   ANDRE KOLE

Does anyone know of how to get in touch with Andre Kole?
I saw him a few years ago and thought his show was great,
and now our church wants to have a fund raiser so I think
this might me a good idea for us.  I know that he does a
great deal of his shows for Campus Crusade for Christ but
does anyone have another phone# or name of his booking
agency?  This would be of great help, thanks!
Kevin

Msg #5224  Dated 19:24:29  06-09-91
From: PETE BIRO
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   WHRE IS YA

I just hit the board here back home. You back yet? Got to get in touch.
Will FAX you smpin.

Msg #5225  Dated 19:25:19  06-09-91  -> 5227
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

I hear a magi once say "
er, say, "FACE UP"... har!
Yup, just back from Mexico... burp

Msg #5226  Dated 19:25:28  06-09-91
From: PETE BIRO
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   JAPAN TELEVISION

Or a Southern one?

Msg #5227  Dated 19:25:32  06-09-91  -> 5228
From: PETE BIRO
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

This was a stock line? I never heard it before.

Msg #5228  Dated 19:25:38  06-09-91  -> 5262
From: PETE BIRO
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Much better.

Msg #5230  Dated 19:25:48  06-09-91  -> 5231
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

I think if you review a book, you must include, Laffs (for funny book
s) or Tricks (for magic books) per Dollar.

Msg #5231  Dated 19:25:54  06-09-91  -> 5245
From: PETE BIRO
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

What qualifies a reviewer? Ability to read without moving lips?

Msg #5233  Dated 19:26:04  06-09-91  5068 <--> 5271
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

I think a section for Lunch dates, etc. for SOCAL LOCALS mite be OK.O
therwise leave it alone! ARrrgghhhh it is so hot here the screen is
blinking off and on... last time it did that I had to put a fan in
back of the monitor. Arrrggghhhh.

Msg #5235  Dated 19:26:19  06-09-91  5098 <--> 5241
From: PETE BIRO
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Isn't the FILE section the place to segregate messages? Like: Revies,
(add the W where you think it fits on line above).
Software, Lists? Etc. et al (sic) ad infinitum?

Msg #5236  Dated 19:26:27  06-09-91  5138 <--> 5239
From: PETE BIRO
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   POSTER

Gracias el Max-O. Just back loads of mail (no checks!) be in tuch.

Msg #5237  Dated 19:26:32  06-09-91  5143 <--> 5238
From: PETE BIRO
To:   ARNAUD VANRIETSCHOTEN (X)
Re:   FISM ON MAGIC!

Arnaud! I am coming, but due to low battery situation, unless I can
sort out the Electrics, will leave my laptop home. OR... bring my
old Tandy 200? Hmmmm. Will fly into Zurich and train to Lausanne
on opening day.... Do not know what hotel I will be at as yet.
See you all soon!

Msg #5238  Dated 19:26:40  06-09-91  5151 <--> 5240
From: PETE BIRO
To:   PATRICE MOORE
Re:   FISM ON MAGIC!

I understand Harry (Blackstone Jr.) is doing a full show. Thassall I
have heard.

Msg #5239  Dated 19:26:46  06-09-91  5152 <-
From: PETE BIRO
To:   PATRICE MOORE
Re:   POSTER

Will call Stormin' Norman. Tanks.

Msg #5240  Dated 19:26:51  06-09-91  5153 <--> 5282
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   FISM ON MAGIC!

Biro, hisself, with computer will be at ze PCAM... Hey, I live a few
blocks away.... adios....

Msg #5241  Dated 19:26:57  06-09-91  5186 <--> 5242
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DOUGLAS LARSON (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

No. Abbott.ADR

Msg #5242  Dated 19:27:01  06-09-91  5188 <--> 5263
From: PETE BIRO
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Just to the right of the colon? In the center of Colon is.... Abbotts

Msg #5243  Dated 19:27:06  06-09-91  5222 <-
From: PETE BIRO
To:   KEVIN MEADOR (X)
Re:   ANDRE KOLE

Andre Kole: 325 West Southern, Tempe, AZ 85282
(602)968-8625

Msg #5244  Dated 20:08:10  06-09-91  5193 <--> 5259
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Before this thread becomes unintentionally confusing, I think there
ought to be some clarification of the "Too Perfect Theory," which was
first proposed by Rick Johnsson. The premise is that there are certain
tricks which are so directly structured that the spectator essentially
has no choice but to work backwards toward a solution.
   Simple example: a signed card ends up inside a box sitting across
the room, which the performer never goes near. This, according to the
theory, might lead a spectator to decide that the signature on the
found card was a forgery. If, on the other hand, the magician picked up
the box at some point in the routine, it opens the possibility for some
sleight-of-hand activity, and thus the spectator does not begin
thinking along the lines of duplicate cards.
   It's an interesting theory, but hardly all-encompassing. There are
many instances in which it does not apply. However, it has value if
only as a point of reference in developing a routine.

So far as I am concerned, however, the Too Perfect Theory has no
connection to mentalism, which is a very different ballgame.

Msg #5245  Dated 20:13:30  06-09-91  5201 <--> 5253
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

My comment that the Aronson book is, to me, not boring is not based on
the magic content alone. Personally, although I don't consider Simon to
be an exciting writer, I find his writing style perfectly agreeable.
But this, of course, is an aesthetic judgment, which each reader can
and should make for him/herself.

How do you "know Aronson is great and that he is a credit to magic"??

Msg #5246  Dated 20:16:16  06-09-91  5204 <--> 5254
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

Ah, but it's worth noting that Scott was _not_ offended by my reaction
and comments -- it was other people who took it that way.

Msg #5247  Dated 20:17:21  06-09-91  5220 <--> 5255
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   BOOK BET

The proposition is meaningless unless the terms are defined. By what
criteria are you designating a book as a "classic" -- that it is fondly
remembered; frequently referenced; still selling; overtly influenced
the development of magic; and/or...?

Msg #5250  Dated 20:39:33  06-09-91  5219 <--> 5269
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Whenever...UPS left here last week.
'W.

Msg #5252  Dated 20:44:26  06-09-91  -> 5283
From: ANDREW T OAKDEN
To:   ALL
Re:   WIZARDS WEEKEND

I just got back from the Wizards Weekend in Bloomingtoon, MN.
It was great some of the lectures were by, John Cornelius, Docc Hilford
(WOW is he strange), Chris Carey, Johnny Thompson (The Great Tomsoni),
John Bannon, and Brian Flora.  That was the first convention that I
have ever attended.  Be sure to come to it next year .  It is on the
first weekend of June.  For more info contact:

                          WIZARDS WEEKEND
                          P.O. BOX 23182
                          RICHFEILD, MN
                               55423

It is really great!!!




Msg #5253  Dated 20:58:30  06-09-91  5245 <--> 5260
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

My statement that Aronson is great, etc is a judgement call based
the opinions of several people whom I do know who told me this. I
tend to make second party judgements based on how I feel about the
second party. Ok, I'll take the book upstairs tonight and try again.

Msg #5254  Dated 20:58:37  06-09-91  5246 <--> 5270
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

My comments to Scott were based on the fact that hundreds of people
read our comments to each other and I felt moved to state my feelings
in this manner.

Msg #5255  Dated 20:58:43  06-09-91  5247 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   BOOK BET

I've been doing some thinking on this since I threw it out. Frequency
of mention is one criterion, still selling would be another (however
I do not want to omit books published in limited editions from the
bet). I'm not sure how to measure overt influence. Perhaps a vote of
the mambers of MAGIC! in the year 2016 might be in order. If someone
actually wants to take me up on this proposition I will be glad to
negotiate the terms of the bet with them to a mutually agreeable set
of rules.

Msg #5259  Dated 21:17:23  06-09-91  5193 <--> 5264
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Part of "too perfect" has to do with drama -- things that are too easy
and unadorned are simply boring to watch.  But I'm trying to close in
on the element that has to do with how people perceive magic "should"
work.  In my example, for instance, I almost think people think I
should have to have them write it down for me to be able to read their
minds... Or, rather, if I don't have them write it down, that it's so
impossible it MUST be a trick

Or something like that.

Msg #5261  Dated 21:22:44  06-09-91  5212 <--> 5265
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

I knew that!  Sense of humor, where art thou?  Hiding with irony?

Msg #5262  Dated 21:27:16  06-09-91  5227 <--> 5279
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

You're kidding.

Msg #5263  Dated 21:28:29  06-09-91  5242 <--> 5274
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Msg #5264  Dated 21:29:37  06-09-91  5244 <--> 5296
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Do you have any comment on the original message I left?  If Johnsson's
theory does not apply, is there something else that I'm getting at that
I can't quite express?

Msg #5265  Dated 21:30:46  06-09-91  5253 <--> 5268
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Making second party judgements based on how you feel about the second
party is the human condition.

Msg #5268  Dated 22:37:26  06-09-91  5212 <--> 5287
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Largely due to EVAN, there is a NEW RULE here on MAGIC!  From now on,
ALL messages will be required to bear a "legend code" at the bottom of
the message.  The legend code MUST appear, by itself, on the last line
of the message.  It MUST be enclosed in angle brackets < >.

One of the following codes MUST be used:

    - for FOOLING AROUND.  This code MUST be used with all funny,
         satirical, and facetious messages.

    - for SERIOUS.  This code MUST be used with all serious,
         profound, and philosophical messages.

Anyone who fails to include the code in the proper place and properly
marked in a message will be DENIED ACCESS IMMEDIATELY.

As a time saving feature, all messages from Evan Katz will
AUTOMATICALLY be tagged .  All messages from Max Maven will
AUTOMATICALLY be tagged .



Msg #5269  Dated 22:46:20  06-09-91  5206 <--> 5273
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

RIGHT!  Ah, Tabman, there is nothing like the sound of your words
appearing on my screen.  Sure glad to have you back here!

Msg #5270  Dated 22:49:05  06-09-91  5207 <--> 5304
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

I agree, and I'm glad that Scott and Max seem to as well.  Jonnathan
Pendragon had some very interesting comments on copying today and I
hope to share them a bit later, after catching up with the mail on here
and doing a couple of other MAGIC! things.

There is no question that one should do one's homework prior to
publishing an effect here on MAGIC!  In that regard, we are like any
other form of publication.  I would like to be sure, however, that
people do not become afraid to publish material on here.

Msg #5271  Dated 22:53:12  06-09-91  5213 <--> 5272
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

MAGIC! is set up in such a way that an RC;* would immediately deliver
ALL new messages in all sections in which one was enrolled.
Effectively, there would be NO change, except that someone could opt
not to have a section available to them.

Frankly, as I mentioned in my original message, I have yet to talk with
a member who honestly says that there is some topic or section they
would turn off.  And unless there are members who are planning to do
so, there is, in my mind, little point in having sections.

The capability exists and a couple of members have suggested it, so my
purpose is to determine what the members wish.

Msg #5272  Dated 22:56:51  06-09-91  5233 <--> 5305
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

Biro-san!  Good to have you back!  We missed you!

As to the fan behind the monitor, I presume it is one of your own fans,
and not, say, one of David Copperfield's or Penn & Teller's.

Msg #5273  Dated 22:58:02  06-09-91  5169 <--> 5284
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

4 feet on a side is standard. If you are really interested the best
book I have found is 'The Guide to Pyramid Energy' by Kerrel &
Goggin. They present the concepts in a low-key rational manner and
have quite a few experiments that you can do to see what pyramid
energy is.
.
I got into pyramids as a means of developing effects for the
'New Age'.

Msg #5274  Dated 22:58:12  06-09-91  5175 <--> 5275
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

You the user would specify whether you want a particuliar msg deleted
from the thread, and the forward backward pointers would be adjusted.
.
You are right what is chit-chat to me may be literature to you. The
function I have in mind would let EACH user customize their own
text files for historical purposes. I'm not sure how much use this
function would be, it was just a thought.
.
OK - I think I can probably do an Enter function and have the user
answer the to and subject ? off-line. Will experiment with it later
tonight.

Msg #5275  Dated 22:58:24  06-09-91  5187 <--> 5281
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DOUGLAS LARSON (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

That's in the latest version, I uploaded it last week. Check for the
latest version of RDMAGIC (until it gets released we are calling it
RDMAGIC, when doc is done it will become IMP!.ZIP).

Msg #5277  Dated 22:59:25  06-09-91  5216 <--> 5308
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   ROUSER?

But I was raised in the South - I was betting on Rebel.

Msg #5279  Dated 23:04:22  06-09-91  5225 <--> 5288
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Recently my wife got called out of the audience at the Castle to assist
the performing magician.  At one point he said, "OK, now say your
favorite magic word."  She said, "Spoolaga!" - Nathan's personal,
copywrighted magic word.  The mage looked kinda funny.  I told her that
next time something like that happens, she should use "Sim Sala Bim"
and see what happens...

Msg #5281  Dated 23:12:16  06-09-91  5274 <--> 5477
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Thanks for working on the ENTER function.  It is, as you can see, very
important.  Otherwise, people are using RDMAGIC and just throwing stuff
onto the threads.

I don't think that the concern with the number of messages is for
historical archives.  The problem is the real time reads.

Msg #5282  Dated 23:14:15  06-09-91  5240 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   FISM ON MAGIC!

ALRIGHT!  GREAT!  Now if you can remember what day to be there...

Msg #5283  Dated 23:17:01  06-09-91  5252 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ANDREW T OAKDEN
Re:   WIZARDS WEEKEND

Can't we press you for some more details?

Msg #5284  Dated 23:19:04  06-09-91  5273 <--> 5314
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Thanks for the info, Jerry.  Will have to see if it can be done at my
place - I'm not sure my bedroom is that big.  Are you using one?  The
notion is interesting.

Msg #5285  Dated 23:21:40  06-09-91  5140 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ALL
Re:   MAGIC IN SPACE!

Don't know what happened...  I was led to understand that we would be
seeing a SILK trick.  Instead we seem to have gotten a CARD trick (with
two $1.09 each Bicycle decks).  Doesn't sound like the press bought it
as "magic," instead they called it a "card trick."  Guess we'll have to
see if anyone knows what happened - it is possible the silk wouldn't
behave under weightless conditions.

MEANWHILE - ANOTHER HISTORIC FIRST FOR MAGIC!!!  Check the files area
for a digitized performance image from SPACE!!!!!  It ain't too great,
but it EXISTS!  This, along with the image of the mission patch, should
be historic magic items of the future.  The new image of Mike Bagian
holding a box of cards is now in the files area in THREE formats:

   STS-MAGE.LBM - AMIGA image in color
   STS-MAGE.PCX - IBM EGA/VGA 320 x 200 image in color
   STS-MAGE.MAC - Mac image in B&W.

For the folks working on the collector's cards, you might want to check
with NASA for a good print - this could be the "rare" card in the
series.


Msg #5286  Dated 23:29:05  06-09-91  -> 5526
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   MARVIN STERN (X)
Re:   SHOWBIZ EXPO

Marvin -

Thanks for the passes to the Expo.  It was really very valuable.  Most
valuable, of course, was the B&S T-shirt for Nathan.  He loves it!  I
must admit though that I didn't have the heart to correct him when he
exclaimed "a camcorder!"  Don't worry - I'll tell him in a few years
when he gets his first Arry.

Msg #5287  Dated 23:44:47  06-09-91  5268 <--> 5291
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

You devil, you!




Msg #5288  Dated 23:46:25  06-09-91  5279 <--> 5292
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

COOL.  Nathan's on to something!

Msg #5289  Dated 23:49:57  06-09-91  -> 5527
From: T A WATERS
To:   MARVIN STERN (X)
Re:   SHOWBIX EXPO

And my thanks also, Marvin, for the opportunity to see the Expo; it was
quite fascinating -- now if I only had about 4 or 5 million bucks...SO
many pretty toys!

Msg #5290  Dated  0:35:53  06-10-91  -> 5310
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   MARVIN STERN (X)
Re:   EXPO

Thanks again, Marvin...we enjoyed the Expo...although Jonathan
performed a new show at every exhibit we stopped at...most of the
exhibitors really loved it...there were a couple who weren't quite sure
what to make of him.  We improvised a firebug bit at the State and
National Parks Service booth...heh, heh...one of 'em was momentarily
ready to arrest us!  My face still hurts from laughing.  Thanks again.
'Wayne.

Msg #5291  Dated  1:15:38  06-10-91  5287 <--> 5295
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

I'm not a devil - I'm a rubble raising wizard.



Msg #5292  Dated  1:16:21  06-10-91  5288 <--> 5309
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Yeah!  If I try to use the word, he says "MY word is Spoolaga!  YOUR
word is Wooga-wooga!"  I wanted to make sure his word was published
here, since the other mage looked like he had designs on it.

Msg #5295  Dated  1:54:19  06-10-91  5253 <--> 5302
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Mind you, there's absolutely no reason why you should necessarily like
his writing...

Msg #5296  Dated  1:55:11  06-10-91  5264 <--> 5297
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Seems to me that you need to define the effect you're interested in
presenting. If it is meant to be telepathy, then the spectator's action
of writing the word down is extraneous. If, on the other hand, you are
aiming for the effect of managing to read hidden writing, then there is
a need for the spectator to write.

Msg #5297  Dated  1:03:34  06-10-91  5244 <--> 5298
From: RICHARD HART
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

I took some friends to the Castle not too long ago.  We caught the
Palace show; one of the performers was Dorian.  Among other things in
his routine, he did a memory book test, with King's "IT".  Basically,
a spectator selects a page, and he promptly rattles off, word for word,
several paragraphs from the selected page.  Certainly impressed me, but
after the show, I asked the wife of one of my guests what she thought
of the performance.  She replied (and these are her words, not mine)
that she found the book test "Too Perfect"!

Now I'm not sure whether or not this is an example of the Too Perfect
Theory in mentalism, but I am hard-pressed to come up with any other
theory that explains it.  She seemed to buy Dorian's description of a
selected magazine page, or of a selected WORD from within the pages of
"IT", but when it came to the apparent memorization of the entire book,
she drew closed the curtains of her suspension of disbelief.  This
didn't cause her to work backwards toward the solution, per se, but it
did cause her to carry backwards to the point where a feat became a
trick, and there it stopped.  Still, though, just as deadly in the long
run.

As Evan has pointed out, much hinges around the particular dramatic
spell the performer is attempting to cast upon his/her audience.  The
stage persona has much to do with the success (or failure) of the
"rub".  You yourself, Max, are a splendid example of this.  What you do
with your audience WORKS.  And only because you've carefully crafted
your alter ego--down to a level of detail only rivalled by the finest
of rare champaignes.  From the moment you walk on, the sheer strength
of your stage presense carries your mysteries forth.  From you, they
expect perfection.

Dorian, I feel, lacks this strength of conviction.  I don't know him,
had only seen him once before, but I get the impression that he doesn't
really believe in what he's doing.  Put a polygraph on him during his
routine, and I'd bet the thing'd draw his family tree.  I get the
feeling that he feels _guilty_.  Put a polygraph on you, Max, and I'd
be willing to bet we see nothing but flatlines.

But what does this have to do with the Too Perfect Theory?

A lot, I think.  Using your signed card in box example, Max, wouldn't
you say that Copperfield's card on train window to be about the same
thing?  And didn't we see about 50,000 words (and a fuzzy digitized
picture) attempting to work backward right here on this BBS?  And
yet from a lay audience, I get nothing but "I haven't the foggiest idea
how Copperfield did THAT!"  To us, grown accustomed, if you will, to
immersion in personas, we consider anything to be a puzzle and treat it
thusly.  But lay audiences are swindled by ego constructs, and thus are
prevented from ever reaching a level of cognizance allowing the Too
Perfect Theory to rear its ugly head.  That is, given the right ego
construct!

Your comment, "... it  has value if only as a
point of reference in developing a routine" sums it up quite nicely.
I see what you mean, but am unsure of just how one would go about using
it when developing a routine.  Especially a mentalism routine.



Msg #5298  Dated  2:26:12  06-10-91  5297 <--> 5300
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

As I stated in my previous comment, I question the use of the Johnsson
theory as a standard. By all means, it can be gotten around, usually by
dint of being overpowered by the performer's personality and approach.
If you've ever seen Jimmy Grippo, you'll know just what I mean.

Again, I don't think the Too Perfect Theory particularly applied to
mentalism, as it is governed by very different conceptual "rules." In
the case of the show you saw, where your friend refused to buy the
notion that the performer was capable of memorizing such a large book,
this is not the Too Perfect Theory in action, but perhaps what we might
call the Too Good Theory: i.e., the performer's claim was beyond the
abilities the audience was willing to assign to him.

Years ago, I talked Lance Burton into doing the card sword. When I
first suggested it to him, he was adamant about not wanting to do "a
card trick." The point I stressed was that, given his image, style, and
the nature of the act the audience would view prior to that trick, it
would be possible to develop a presentation which the public would buy
as legitimate -- that given their perception of Lance's skill and
precision, it was vaguely possible that he really might be able to stab
a chosen card from a flurry. One idea that I came up with to try and
emphasize this was that he would ribbonspread the pack up his arm just
before tossing it upwards -- this overt demonstration of skillful
control serving as a reminder.

Going back to the Too Good Theory, if a performer who has evidenced no
particular skill does the card sword, it may go over, but I doubt that
the audience will buy it. Similarly, the book test you saw probably got
a nice reaction (it has when I've seen him do it), but clearly for some
it does not come across with the feel of reality.

Msg #5300  Dated  2:25:31  06-10-91  5297 <--> 5301
From: RICHARD HART
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"



I've just read your last reply to Evan.  W.O.W. book test, wasn't it?
Doesn't this effect, by nature, lend itself to a demonstration of
telepathy?  Seems redundant to have a spectator pick a word out of a
book and then write it down--it's already written down IN THE BOOK!

Getting back to the topic at hand:  how to use the Too Perfect theory
while routining.  Should we shun effects that appear too perfect simply
because that by their very nature, they are easily reverse-engineered
by a lay audience?  Or should we attempt to bury, if you will, these
effects far down in the labyrinthian depths of a many-miracled routine?
Sneak it in later in the set in hopes that the audience will have been
etherized by previous effects?  Assuming they're still awake, of
course.

Or should we take the red herring approach, and alter the presentation
enough to allow a number of false clues to be dropped as to the method?
Do we WANT the audience to see us pick up the box before we produce the
signed card?  Do we want them to write their selected word so we can
appear to pencil-read?

So what to do?  As performers, do we dare be too perfect?  And as
mentalists, dare we be less than so?

Msg #5301  Dated  3:31:09  06-10-91  5298 <--> 5312
From: RICHARD HART
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Profound, Max, indeed VERY profound.

I have three posters I keep on my wall at work.  The first, is a
listing of all of Murphy's laws.  The second is a list of Glen Fisher's
rules of computer programming.  The third, is a collection of quotes by
various magicians.

You just made the third poster, Max.

  The Too Good Theory:  The performer's claim was beyond the abilities
                        the audience was willing to assign to him.
                        -- Max Maven 6/10/91

Definately words to live by.

Thank you.

Msg #5302  Dated  4:24:08  06-10-91  5261 <--> 5311
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

I do have a sense of humor, tho right now it is sitting in a bus
locked in the Lake Charles, Louisiana sheriffs lockup along with
30,000 dollars worth of other stuff and you jump me as soon as I
walk in the door. What do you expect? Posies?

Msg #5304  Dated  4:24:21  06-10-91  5270 <--> 5315
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

I see MAGIC! as a place that someone can and should do their
"homework." The fear should come from not knowing, not from knowing
that someone on here can point the way whether  or . There are
plenty of sources for tricks and effects. Philosophy and theory are
subjects that don't get enuff coverage for the most part in books and
magazines. Futurists may well cull the "banter" from what we do and
call what we deem trivial, importante.

Msg #5305  Dated  4:24:31  06-10-91  5271 <--> 5306
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

OK, enroll me in ALL sections and I'll stay happy.

Msg #5306  Dated  4:24:36  06-10-91  5272 <--> 5316
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

I heard it was a fan he used for Snow Storm In China and that the
"confetti" clogged up the air vents on the back of his Multisync.

Msg #5308  Dated  4:24:50  06-10-91  5277 <--> 5340
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   ROUSER?

And they raised you well.

Msg #5309  Dated  4:24:55  06-10-91  5279 <--> 5319
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Seems like I read somewhere that Dante copped the Sim Sala Bim from
another source, but it escapes me at the moment. I agree that
Spoolaga is good and you'll probably hear it next time you go to the
Castle. My tribe does prefer Wooga Wooga and I agree with Nathan that
Spoolaga is his.

Msg #5310  Dated  4:25:03  06-10-91  5290 <--> 5529
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   EXPO

Would of loved to have seen that one.

Msg #5311  Dated  4:25:08  06-10-91  5295 <--> 5313
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

I'm gonna work on one of his effects this week and see what I think.

Msg #5312  Dated  4:25:12  06-10-91  5298 <--> 5321
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

I could "buy" Lance Burton doing the card sword. Great suggestion. I
think that the card on the tennis racket would be just as good. Swat
through the cards (serve them up if you will) and reveal the card
enmeshed in the strings of the racket or "serve" them into a wall
with a little wax on the chosen card. Maybe a tennis game between
Doc Eason and Michael Ammar?

Msg #5313  Dated  7:14:37  06-10-91  5268 <--> 5322
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

And all messages from Biro will be tagged  for Arrrggghhhh?

Msg #5314  Dated  7:14:43  06-10-91  5269 <--> 5318
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

My monitor is one of the older types, and not only do I not "hear"
anything but the only way to correct mis-spelling is with whiteout!


Msg #5315  Dated  7:14:50  06-10-91  5270 <--> 5334
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

When I am not sure of the "source" of any material I usually call a
few select folks (they read a lot and have GOOD Memory Glands!) and
it not only leads to the source, but often to even better material!
Those that would like to  follow this procedure have a couple of
MAGIC! users that fill this bill perfectly in Max Maven and Jeff
Busby.


Msg #5316  Dated  7:15:01  06-10-91  5271 <--> 5317
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

I vote NO.

Msg #5317  Dated  7:15:06  06-10-91  5272 <--> 5336
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

Tandy Corp. fan. Low cost, ugly, but does the job.


Msg #5318  Dated  7:15:12  06-10-91  5273 <--> 5327
From: PETE BIRO
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

You forgot to tag the message with an 


Msg #5319  Dated  7:15:18  06-10-91  5279 <--> 5324
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

I hope she told him Sim Sala Bim is a stock line and she had re-
written it in hopes to keep the act from being a cliche of itself!
When you are asked for YOUR FAVORITE and the Mojo Man changes  your
word you should reprimand him on the spot!


Msg #5321  Dated  7:15:37  06-10-91  5297 <--> 5325
From: PETE BIRO
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

I didn't know anyone had heard of Maven's FLAT POLYGRAPH gaffe. Too
bad Max, next thing you know there will be a couple of hun messages
here with variations!

Msg #5322  Dated  7:15:44  06-10-91  5302 <--> 5331
From: PETE BIRO
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

They kept your posies too? Sheet.

Msg #5324  Dated  7:16:12  06-10-91  5309 <--> 5330
From: PETE BIRO
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Sim Sala Bib is part of a Danish song popular with young children.
My mother (from Copenhagen) used to sing it. I think the full line is
something like "Sim Sala Bim Bala Boom Bala -- and I forget the last
part...

Msg #5325  Dated  7:16:19  06-10-91  5312 <--> 5326
From: PETE BIRO
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

I have, in my lecture (and it will be in the fourth book of the six
hundred book series) a card in Rat Trap, which uses a real, almost
ungaffed KILLER RAT TRAP. (I actually got my finger caught in it one
time and the audience was amazed at my ACTING ABILITY... several came
up and later said, "Boy you sure could act like your finger was hurt"
---if they had bothered to look at a crushed finger end they would
know the Kid Can't Act at all... 'twas real pain... but the show must
go on....)!!!
.
However (oh, it was also writ up in Genii) I did get a letter from a
guy that made it up and used it saying, "I did the rat trap the other
night and caught TWO CARDS  in it... BOTH THE SAME VALUE, the dupe
and by some cooincidence... actually caught the real select in the
trap by accident.
.
It is EZ to make up. Stiffen up a card, hook a rubber band to the
back of card. Put card on face side of trap, run band through the
BLOOD HOLE (that's what it is) at end of trap and to middle of the
wood part attach with  thumb tack. Screw a squeeze-type clip to the
end of the back opposite the blood hole end. Stretch card out over
the end, put into clip. All this is on the back. From front trap
looks ungaffed. Set trap. CAREFULLY. When you toss cards up into the
air, thrust trap into fluttering cards. Squeeze clip, it releases the
card, which flies around and hits the trap release and is caught in
the trap. Try it you'll like it.

Msg #5326  Dated  7:16:46  06-10-91  5312 <--> 5328
From: PETE BIRO
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

I have also seen "card on Cricket Bat" (in England), card on ping
pong paddle, Card on Fly Swatter, Card on Knife, Card on nose, card
on floor, (okay one more and I will    have to tag with )...
and the card on the glass flap attached to the outside of my own
private, fake, train car window.

Msg #5327  Dated  9:39:42  06-10-91  5314 <--> 5341
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Geez, Pete...that IS old!  Mine at least uses green-out.  You should
try to get one that uses amber-out.

Msg #5328  Dated 10:25:06  06-10-91  5325 <--> 5332
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Pete -

As I recall, there are TWO springs on a rat trap.  Didn't your original
instructions also say to DISCONNECT one of them?  I think it makes the
difference - if you do catch your finger - between having to or not
having to pick up the finger off the floor after the performance.

Msg #5330  Dated 10:35:26  06-10-91  5324 <--> 5349
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

That's OK, "Spoolaga" is actually the name of a robot eating plant in
the ZBS productions "Ruby" series.

Msg #5331  Dated 10:38:47  06-10-91  5313 <--> 5355
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Yeah, I couldn't make up my mind whether your messages should
automatically be tagged  or .  Finally decided to let the system
assign 'em a letter at random.

Msg #5332  Dated 10:40:12  06-10-91  5301 <--> 5348
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Yes!  Max's comment was pure insight.  One of those "clear as a bell"
things that comes shooting across the ether and makes MAGIC!
worthwhile.

Msg #5334  Dated 10:45:45  06-10-91  5315 <--> 5335
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

I have no gripe with asking someone to do their homework prior to
posting something.  But that isn't as easy for some - who may be in
small towns with no access to magical reference materials - as it is
for others.

In theory, it is possible for anyone to do what you suggest - to ask an
"expert" - simply by first posting an outline of the effect as a
private message to one of the gurus here on MAGIC!  But I don't think
that is fair to the gurus - they haven't volunteered to serve as a
clearing house/reference library.

With all of our combined knowledge here on MAGIC! and given that we
have an interactive medium (as opposed to something appearing in print
followed by letters about it later), there must be some way that we
could help "clear" material without making it burdensome to our
resident experts.


Msg #5335  Dated 10:53:17  06-10-91  5304 <--> 5350
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

You've touched on something very close to my heart.  Magic dialog,
particularly in the "inner circles," has been a body of knowledge that
has been added to and extended since the earliest occurances of social
aggregation (the shammans of clans used to meet regularly).  EVERY
contribution EXTENDS that dialog - it is never just a casual comment.
It adds a thread to the fabric of magic.  I view what we do here as
infinitely precious - a "real time" global exchange, a continuation of
the most sacred dialog.

Msg #5336  Dated 10:59:10  06-10-91  5306 <--> 5337
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

You've got a good point - maybe we should open that monitor and find
out just what IS in there...  Nah, could be hazardous...

Msg #5337  Dated 11:00:08  06-10-91  5316 <--> 5352
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

And to TABBY too...

The main problem may be with the global connections - some of the local
"chit-chat" doesn't draw an enthusiastic crowd in the Netherlands or
Japan or the other places that MAGIC! is starting to go.  Tis' a puzzle
beyond my scope to easily solve, but will work on it.

Msg #5340  Dated 11:08:27  06-10-91  5308 <--> 5373
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   ROUSER?

Thank you!  As Tanya Tucker says, "I believe the South is gonna rise
again..."

Msg #5341  Dated 11:09:28  06-10-91  5314 <--> 5342
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Get an Amiga!  You can turn on the "say" function and it will READ the
messages to you as they scroll across the screen!  SERIOUSLY!  And you
can have your choice of several voices.

By the way - to all the Amigoids out there - do you know about the deal
that ends THIS WEEK - Bring in the front page of ANY Commodore computer
manual with your machines serial number written on it - can be an Amiga
1000, Commodore 62, ANY Commodore - and you get a $1,500 discount on an
Amiga 3000!  AND you get to keep your old Commodore too!

Msg #5342  Dated 11:12:18  06-10-91  5318 <--> 5344
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Uh, er, Pete - The original message about tagging messages was tagged
...

Msg #5344  Dated 11:15:52  06-10-91  5341 <--> 5345
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I have communicated with a Blind person on Compuserve that has an IBM
AT clone that talks. Hmmmmm.

Msg #5345  Dated 11:16:22  06-10-91  5342 <--> 5347
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

 You very much!

Msg #5347  Dated 11:22:14  06-10-91  5327 <--> 5358
From: PETE BIRO
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Relates to old joke about how to tell which computer is used by the
Polish secretary... "the one with White Out on the Sceen".. argh
Do you that one of the lads that was on the "Monkees" TV show is very
rich, 'cause his Mom INVENTED white out!

Msg #5348  Dated 11:22:24  06-10-91  5328 <--> 5357
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

There are TWO side springs that cause the Kill Bar to go... and yes,
I did suggest disconnecting one of them. Har. Boy what a memory you
got.
Oh, just rang Wells. WE MOVE INTO THE HOTEL ON NIGHT OF 27TH, after
the Stew at El Tabbo's (same night according to Wells).
You better phone hotel and scream and holler for the Convention Rate,
you missed deadline and room rate went to $175.00 or more! Yikes.
Bring mat and share?

Msg #5349  Dated 11:22:36  06-10-91  5330 <--> 5356
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

I think in a prior message I miss spelled Sim Sala Bim, but I think
you knew that>

Msg #5350  Dated 11:22:43  06-10-91  5334 <--> 5351
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

I think the resident experts would be flattered to be asked. I don't
think there is going to be a RUSH of material...

Msg #5351  Dated 11:22:48  06-10-91  5335 <--> 5391
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

YO!

Msg #5352  Dated 11:22:53  06-10-91  5337 <--> 5392
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

I think if there is a way to compartment the "see you for lunch" stuf
f you would gain a bunch. The local L.A. club stuff too. Maybe it
could be a "local" channel? Hmmmm, Arrgghh, Har, etc.

Msg #5355  Dated 11:46:32  06-10-91  5302 <--> 5363
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Wha' happen?

Msg #5356  Dated 11:47:09  06-10-91  5292 <--> 5366
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Perhaps your word IS Wooga-wooga.

Msg #5357  Dated 11:48:19  06-10-91  5296 <--> 5359
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Okay, I guess you don't think that opening rather than closing a
potential avenue of method assists the trick at all, period.  You don't
believe that people will sometimes be more gullible under certain more
flawed presentational conditions?  I suspect you don't, and my
inability to put my thinking into words here will not lead to a
fruitful philosophical discussion...

Msg #5358  Dated 11:54:51  06-10-91  5344 <--> 5361
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I guess Wells sent you his messages Prive! Darn, wanted to read 'em.
Bye for now....Grraaahhh!

Msg #5359  Dated 11:53:10  06-10-91  5298 <--> 5360
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Okay, you've hit the nail on the head.  The "Too Good" theory is
exactly what I was circling around.

Yes, a performer that doesn't radiate enough skill will hit this
barrier frequently.  As will the amateur performer, doing effects for
his or her friends... "If Evan can really read my mind, why isn't he
living next to the Pacific Stock Exchange?"  ...

Isn't there a point where anyone would hit this wall?  Where something
seems so impossible that it's beyond the abilities of anyone?  This is
all presentation I suspect, in the end, as the right stage persona will
be so standoff-ish and distanced that people could never see hior her
interested in becoming rich predicting the future or the stock
market... Does this mean that the most effective mentalism personas
are by definition more distanced from their audience than say, the
average magician miracle-worker, who is not claiming mind reading
skills?

Msg #5360  Dated 11:57:13  06-10-91  5300 <--> 5367
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

The danger (for me) with the WOW book test is that people sometimes
will rather believe that I have actually memorized the first word on
all the pages of both books, than that I can actually read their
minds.  This is no doubt in part because I lack the desire to pretend
that I can read their minds, and present the effect in a more hybrid
fashion.  You can argue with my approach from a purist level, but isn't
it a common one?

Msg #5361  Dated 12:02:31  06-10-91  5314 <--> 5362
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

How hot IS it in your place when your monitor begins to overheat?

Msg #5362  Dated 12:03:42  06-10-91  5347 <--> 5368
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Nesmith, I believe.

Msg #5363  Dated 12:11:56  06-10-91  5313 <--> 5364
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

I like that one  for Arrrrggghhhh. I think I'll tag mine
 for hmmmmmmmmm.

Msg #5364  Dated 12:12:02  06-10-91  5322 <--> 5374
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Couldn't sleep and have been working onit all am. Atty tells me to
call on family connections to former President. Nasty situation with
crooked law, etc. Why did I ever get off of Gilley's bus? Oh well,
they'd seen all my card tricks anyway and if I win this one I'm
unstoppable short of a .357 mag.

Msg #5366  Dated 12:12:19  06-10-91  5324 <--> 5372
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Ah ha. And I think I like the second part, Bala Boom Bala better
anyway.

Msg #5367  Dated 12:12:24  06-10-91  5325 <--> 5380
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Great trick, Pete, with the rattrap. I'm a little confused about
which way you stretch the rubberband around the trap though?

Msg #5368  Dated 12:12:30  06-10-91  5327 <--> 5369
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Got yer stuff in the mail today finally. I wanted to drop them in the
 mail in Memphis from the Elvis Presley Post Office on EP Blvd, buttt
problems which hadta be dealt with and fun stuff hadta take a back
seat to the blues at least that day.

Msg #5369  Dated 12:46:35  06-10-91  5347 <--> 5370
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Shoulda used more of the stuff on the Monkees TV Show scripts! Whew!!!
'W.

Msg #5370  Dated 12:48:09  06-10-91  5368 <--> 5375
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Yes indeed, Tabber...only you would think of such a thing!
Thanks for the thought.
'W.

Msg #5372  Dated 12:56:02  06-10-91  5349 <--> 5379
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

I didn't mind your misspelling of "Sim Sala Bim" in message #5324,
Pete.  It was when you misspelled "misspelled" in message #5349 that I
became a bit concerned!
'W.

Msg #5373  Dated 13:14:16  06-10-91  5340 <--> 5394
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   ROUSER?

Oh yeah! Tanya is one of my "buddies".

Msg #5374  Dated 13:14:20  06-10-91  5355 <--> 5377
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Well, Bone Pony bass player got busted with a funny cigarette and
stasched it in the bus and claimed he'd never seen it before. Other
guys don't mess with the stuff but bus and all gear got confiscated.
Then sheriff took all their stuff, wallets, etc and kicked them out
of town. We ahd a show with Robin Trower in memphis set for the next
night. They showed up on Grayhound broke, one guy with no shoes and
shirt, etc. Rented gear. Drove them all home in back of my pickup
truck. Cheeez. Find out today Sheriff there does this for living and
sells himself the confiscated stuff etc. BIG can of worms and I'm
having to try to sort it out. Unfortunately for the sheriff Bone
Pony has a tabman and tabmen go crazy when their friends and clients
are treated unfairly. Talking to friend at Hard Copy now. Gonna fix
them good, but what a pain. No sleep, etc etc. Can never go back
to La after this is over. I thought you might be kidding around, but
with you one never knows. Drat!!

Msg #5375  Dated 13:43:21  06-10-91  5361 <--> 5376
From: PETE BIRO
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I don't know. I just know this happened before and I cured it with
the fan. I was hoping to not have to put the fan on in this new
office. Apparently the TAXAN engineers put a "switch" to turn off
the monitor when it gets too hot. ARrrgghhhh... is annoying.

Msg #5376  Dated 13:43:29  06-10-91  5362 <--> 5385
From: PETE BIRO
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Yep, Mike Nesmith. He has been doing some work on NBC specials and I
know him slightly via off road racing. He runs a truck once in awhile
and I did a story on him for Car and Driver magazine couple years agl
, er AGO.

Msg #5377  Dated 13:43:37  06-10-91  5363 <--> 5410
From: PETE BIRO
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Maybe I will use  for ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! WAke up.

Msg #5379  Dated 13:43:51  06-10-91  5366 <--> 5381
From: PETE BIRO
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

I think it is "Sim Sala Bim, Bala Boom Bala Basa..." Will see if my
Mom can recall next time I visit her.

Msg #5380  Dated 13:43:56  06-10-91  5367 <--> 5388
From: PETE BIRO
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Longway over the end. Just like the rubber line in a card sword.
Card is on FACE side of trap, rubber band goes down thru 1/4-inch hol
e about 1/2-inch from end (opposite spring when trap is set) and
stretches to center of backside of trap and hooked on via thumbtack.
STationary store spring clip is screwed on --- crap... I will draw
it and fax ya!

Msg #5381  Dated 13:44:06  06-10-91  5372 <--> 5389
From: PETE BIRO
To:   WAYNE POWERS (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

There are too many words to remember how to spell.

Msg #5385  Dated 14:04:27  06-10-91  5344 <--> 5386
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I have both speech synthesis and speech recognition on my PC.  I can
actually, if I wish, talk commands to it.  But these are "add ins."  On
the Amiga, several flavors of speech synthesis, along with stereo sound
and NTSC video compatibility are BUILT IN.

By the way, I worked with a programmer who became blind.  While waiting
for his talking mainframe terminal, the company set him up as a
consultant to the other programmers.  Once, a young trainee came over
to him (Steve) to discuss a programming error.  Steve immediately
recognized the problem and said, "OK, can you call it up on my screen?"
When the guy did, Steve pretended to scan the screen with his hand.  He
then stopped and circled an area and said, "See, right here, you need
a semi-colon instead of a comma..."

Msg #5386  Dated 14:10:56  06-10-91  5375 <--> 5476
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

That little "switch" failed in my copier...  Had to have the fire
department bring their BIG fans in.  Fortunately, we were around and
held it down to only the destruction of the copier itself, not the
building.

Msg #5388  Dated 14:17:03  06-10-91  5348 <--> 5399
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Who is Stew?  Who is Mat?  Think I have room arrangements worked out.

Msg #5389  Dated 14:20:16  06-10-91  5349 <--> 5390
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Theoretically, one should ALWAYS misspell magical words.  Otherwise,
their power could leech from the phone lines (in the case of MAGIC!) or
from the pages in the case of books.  An old idea about locked books is
that the aren't locked to keep the curious out, they are locked to keep
the magic in!

Msg #5390  Dated 14:22:05  06-10-91  5356 <--> 5402
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Actually, although I often use Wooga-Wooga, I'm really a bit
uncomfortable with it, as I know that it was not original with me.
Don't mind using "Wiffle Dust" or "Woofle Dust," but have always felt
a bit uncomfortable with Wooga-Wooga.

Msg #5391  Dated 14:25:56  06-10-91  5350 <--> 5398
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

Only with their consent.  I think we would be asking them to take on a
task that might be unfair.

Msg #5392  Dated 14:26:43  06-10-91  5352 <--> 5403
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

Will consider a "local channel," Pete.  On the other hand, the "local"
announcement of the Tabman luncheon drew people from around the
country.

Msg #5394  Dated 14:31:09  06-10-91  5373 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   ROUSER?

I think I've worn the analog version of it out.  Will have to see if it
is on a CD.

Msg #5398  Dated 15:34:55  06-10-91  5334 <--> 5417
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

I think the primary issue has to do with making the effort, and being
aware that such effort is warranted in the first place. No one can be
expected to always find out the complete history of an idea, but that
doesn't change the fact that there ought to be an ongoing motivation
toward achieving that goal.

Msg #5399  Dated 15:37:51  06-10-91  5360 <--> 5401
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

I appreciate your "lack [of] desire to pretend that [you] can read
minds" -- but if so, why perform mentalism at all? I am not knocking
your attitude, but am perplexed by the contradiction between that and
your choice of material.

Msg #5401  Dated 15:50:13  06-10-91  5388 <--> 5407
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Stew is what we eat. Mat is what you put on the floor.

Msg #5402  Dated 15:50:18  06-10-91  5390 <--> 5406
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

I have, FOR MANY YEARS, just used the phrase "woo woo". Such as, "I
always use whatever woo woo is needed" or "You need the right amount
of woo woo."

Msg #5403  Dated 15:50:24  06-10-91  5392 <-
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC! SECTIONS?

Tab is not local.

Msg #5406  Dated 16:11:55  06-10-91  5379 <--> 5408
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Thats even better. Bala Boom Bala Basa!

Msg #5407  Dated 16:12:00  06-10-91  5380 <--> 5412
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Heard fax machine beep and went to check onit. A large rat trap
was emerging from the jaws and now I know whatcha mean. Thanks.

Msg #5408  Dated 16:32:15  06-10-91  5381 <--> 5420
From: WAYNE POWERS
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Aye uhgureee whichya.

Msg #5409  Dated 16:57:27  06-10-91  -> 5423
From: DAVID VANVRANKEN
To:   ALL
Re:   WHAT IF

What if?

What if someone recently had written about a GREAT effect he'd
seen that had to do with folding a sheet of paper into eighths
and writing a letter in each square. After folding, cutting the
borders etc..., the performer was able to discern the word known
only to the spectator. "Please help!" he says,"I'd love to know
more about this." He asks,"Does anyone know if it has been
written up as I'd like to perform it without guilt as I've
figured out a similar method to do this but don't know the
source."

Notice, nowhere does he says "I invented this great trick", or
"I've been performing this for some time and I'd like to share it
with the world."

Would last week's discussion taken place? My guess is NO. Someone
would have answered back "Yes it's a great trick, I think it was
written by XXXX.  Look for it in his book "XXXXX".

It could be that TACTFUL writing could have avoided an incident.
I've contributed ideas in the past that weren't wholly my own and
included credits, when known, and asked for credits when I didn't
know, hoping it might inspire someone else to try it for
themselves, or at least, give them an idea what I like in magic.

This, I believe, is the value of this network, to use it as a
sounding board for ideas, theories, effects already published,
etc. If restrictions are placed on the participants to not write
anything unless it is cleared by some higher authority, the
system breaks down.

Please, PLEASE, don't let this happen here. If someone's toes get
stepped on, no matter how hard, an "ouch" and an apology should
suffice. Dont stop us from walking, we'll never get anywhere!

This board isn't a place to get published, more an open forum for
ideas. Let's not forget why we're here, to enjoy magic and each
other's company.

Don't get me wrong, I love this board and will support it any way
I can, just don't mess up a good thing. The same thing goes
regarding Sections. If this happens, sign me up to ALL of them as
I don't want to miss out on anything. How can I get to know
Tabman's position on things if I don't hear about Brunswick Stew
and Boiled Peanuts once in a while?

There, I've had my say.

David (the other one)


Msg #5410  Dated 18:11:46  06-10-91  5374 <--> 5430
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Gonna get that equipment back?  It doesn't seem right the Sherriff
should be able to sell it, even in the event of a bigger, more
legitimate bust.

Msg #5412  Dated 18:13:18  06-10-91  5399 <--> 5418
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

I would like to think that am amateur can present mentalism effects
without all the dead serious presentation of traditional mentalism.
I'm not knocking it, it's just not for me.  With a trick, they know the
magi's foolin' them on some level.  With a dead serious mentalist, they
don't.  You don't think a magi can present a mentalism effect without
momentarily ducking under the mentalism cloak?

Msg #5413  Dated 18:23:54  06-10-91  5215 <--> 5431
From: RANDY LUND
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   MISC. STUFF

Answer to riddle intentionally vague as to number and sex of others to
accomodate all preferences.  Just like magic it can be one on one or a
group grope.

Msg #5415  Dated 18:31:54  06-10-91  -> 5425
From: RANDY LUND
To:   ALL
Re:   MAGIC2DB

The response to upgrading MAGIC2DB to MAGIC3DB has been underwhelming
to say the least--exactly ZERO (0) comments.  I can only assume you are
all happy with everything exactly as it is so I am going to take the
summer off from programming and may even go to the Abbotts convention.
Randy

Msg #5417  Dated 20:16:45  06-10-91  5398 <--> 6049
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   MAVEN'S KIRIGAMI

I would agree.  The important thing should be the motivation.

Msg #5418  Dated 20:17:55  06-10-91  5401 <--> 5421
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Ah!  OK - will plan to arrive with begging bowl and futon.  I'm
begining to get Convention fever - am really looking forward to it.
Alas, I have a TON of work to do beforehand.

Msg #5420  Dated 20:20:45  06-10-91  5402 <--> 5434
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

"Woo woo" wouldn't fit my personality.  The selection of a magic word
seems to be a very personal thing.

Msg #5421  Dated 19:09:05  06-10-91  5360 <--> 5432
From: RICHARD HART
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

There are many "common" magicians.  It's the _uncommon_ ones who are
working.

As to people believing that you've actually memorized the first word
on all the pages of both books:  first thought, get W.O.W. III and
double their consternation, second thought, is this really so bad, or
is it your performance guilt just showing through?

I think you've lost your focus.  Of course you can't read minds.
You ain't Hamlet either.  But if you were an actor playing the role of
Hamlet, you damned well better ACT convincingly or they'd boot you off
the stage.  They won't believe you if YOU don't believe you.  It's all
a game, really.  A schitzophrenic's delight!  When I'm on stage in my
mentalist persona, I AM PSYCHIC.  I HEAR THEIR THOUGHTS.  This I must
believe.  How I chose to comport myself in front of the audience is
strictly a personal thing, and really just an ego-extension of my true
personality, but I must absolutely believe myself to be psychic during
the presentation.

I'm getting there.  It ain't easy, but given another 10 years, I'll
probably be as good as Maven was when he was three.  And I don't do
anything special in my routine either.  In fact, I've gone out of my
way to include nothing but cheap standards.  I get an hour out of the
following:
              Roydon's Double Dynamite
              Hen Fetch's Mental Epic (it is Hen's, isn't it Max?)
              Key-r-rect (using Thompson-Rutledge routine from
                          Between Two Minds)
              Yedid's W.O.W. III
              The Tossed-out Deck (originator unknown)
              Fogel's Second Spot
              Telekinetic Timber
              Headline prediction (from Between Two Minds, above)

I wanted to stick to the basics for a number of reasons.  Pack small,
play big, simple mechanically, no code work, inexpensive to acquire and
maintain--and most of all, effects that let me work on the thing I need
the most work on, i.e. PRESENTATION.

I did what you do, Evan.  I sat down and over a period of months,
scripted the entire hour.  Then on a cold winter's night, I tossed the
entire thing into the fireplace and watched it burn.  If Eugene Burger
had been there I'd a told him it was a symbolic sacrifice.  And you
know, I wouldn't have been entirely joking either!

I started back in the next morning (post hangover) and built it up
again.  Took me several weeks of white text on a black screen, but
after a bit, the routine began to take shape.  I took it as far as I
could think, then set up and blocked it out with props for several
months.  Then sprang it on an audience.

There is much satisfaction in seeing something you've sweated bullets
over take shape and draw vigorous applause.  The audience loved it.
I hated it.  I'm my own worst critic.  I think in this business, you
have to be.  The moment you grow content, you stagnate.  I resisted the
urge to run down to Hollywood Magic and buy another trunkful of tricks.
No, I thought to myself, this time is special.  This time I'm gonna do
what I set out to do.  If such-and-such a routine flopped, work harder
on presentation.  Script it 5 more ways and see how they play.  Over
and over until I get it right, or have a heart attack from all these
damn cigarettes.  Much mental practice.  Run through the entire routine
in my head while driving to work.  Working on hand and arm movements
while walking at lunch (boy does THAT scare bus bench patrons!)
Working on my stage persona.  Maven was my god.  See the work HE put
in?  Surely I can do half-that (well, I DO have a day job...)  I
dropped 55 pounds in 2 1/2 months so as to look at least passable on
stage.  I read incessantly.  Nelms, Fitzkee, Annemann, Corinda, Becker,
Maven, Waters, Rhine.  The National Enquirer, the Star.  Horoscopes,
History and Houdiniana.

Am I making any sense at all here?  (I gotta go catch my breath)

Msg #5423  Dated 20:25:23  06-10-91  5409 <--> 5429
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   DAVID VANVRANKEN (X)
Re:   WHAT IF

And well said, David!  Really appreciate your input and look forward to
the commentary that will likely follow.

Personally, I view MAGIC! as an extended (24-hour a day, 365-day a
year, global) version of sitting around a table late at night at a
magician's convention.  Freewheeling, lively, and often a very
memorable experience.

Msg #5425  Dated 20:29:32  06-10-91  5415 <--> 5438
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   RANDY LUND (X)
Re:   MAGIC2DB

Indeed, MAGIC2DB works VERY WELL.  Enjoy the Abbotts convention, be
sure to take a laptop and report all the doings for the rest of us
around the world.

Msg #5428  Dated 20:42:14  06-10-91
From: BRUCE SANDERCOCK
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   SHERIFF

hOPE YOU GET THAT sHERIFF, tABBY.

Msg #5429  Dated 20:45:07  06-10-91  5409 <--> 5440
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   DAVID VANVRANKEN (X)
Re:   WHAT IF

Things have been getting more depressing until I read your message
and I appreciate it. You've brought a little magic back into my life
which has been missing the past few days. Thanks again.

Msg #5430  Dated 20:45:13  06-10-91  5410 <--> 5445
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Well, it remains to be seen at this point. I'm still numb from the
experience. My greatest joys it seems come when I'm free to spend
time in my little shop and work with wood. I feel like becoming a
hermit again. I had some friends from Colorado drop by to visit and
they stayed a few minits, checked out the shop and then split. They
wanted to party and all I really wanted to do was continue work on
a project for Burton the Bizarre I've been working on. We signed a
kid to a deal in Nashville today and one of our songs is going on
a Priority Records compilation album and all I want to do is magic.
I understand more and more the reclusive giants who chose to hide
and develop their ideas. Mostly my friends are here on MAGIC! and for
that I am thankful. Bone Pony, in spite of the trajedy made the gig
in Memphis and got the offer I was looking for. I'm mad at the bums
in Lake Charles who've messed up my mind the past few daze and have
taken me away from my beloved shop and bbs. I appreciate your
friendship and your humor and your asking what was eating me alive.
This is why magicians are driven to seek out the company of other
magicians. Understanding and reinforcement. The great luncheon that
you and the others came out for was one of the highlights of my life
(no kidding) and a meal that I'll soon not forget. I've started work
on that writing project I spoke with you about again and now I have a
direction for the final conflict and resolvement of same. Please send
me the info on the Writer's Guild you spoke of so I can get it regist
ered and send it out to you when I get the time to finish my treat-
ment. God bless.

Msg #5431  Dated 20:45:35  06-10-91  5413 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   RANDY LUND (X)
Re:   MISC. STUFF

Sounds like college.

Msg #5432  Dated 21:27:30  06-10-91  5412 <--> 5433
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

A. Up until now I had no idea this conversation had anything to do with
   amateur/professional distinctions. I still think it doesn't, so I do
   not understand why you brought it up.
B. At no time have I suggested that mentalism ought to be serious.
C. I didn't say that a magician can't present a mentalism effect
   without claiming real mentalism abilities. Rather, I question why an
   audience would be particularly interested in a book test if it is
   presented as a demonstration of the performer's ability to secretly
   cop a peek at a piece of writing. Surely you're not suggesting that
   this is the only alternative to a "traditional" presentation.

Msg #5433  Dated 21:37:45  06-10-91  5421 <--> 5439
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Mental Epic was created by Hen Fetsch, but was in turn based on Peter
Warlock's Taped Slate. As for the Tossed-Out Deck, it is most often
credited to David Hoy, but there were precursors. In his book "The
Miracle Makers," J.G. Thompson Jr. provides a highly informative essay
concerning much of this background.

Msg #5434  Dated 21:40:10  06-10-91  5402 <--> 5437
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

It's an actual term used in certain branches of Native American
mysticism.

Msg #5437  Dated 22:02:34  06-10-91  5406 <--> 5442
From: PETE BIRO
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

There was a great German magician that did club dates in the San
Francisco area about 20 years ago named Jan Ballan. His magic words
were "Wom Watso" -- In his thick german accent (he was a very funny
performer) I always thought they were German words. One day I asked
him what they meant in German. He said, "nothing, they are chinese".
.
Then the S.F. magic dealer, known as "Buma" used to say, "Buma, Buma,
Pickle in the Ear!"

Msg #5438  Dated 22:02:45  06-10-91  5415 <--> 5441
From: PETE BIRO
To:   RANDY LUND (X)
Re:   MAGIC2DB

Do you know their address?

Msg #5439  Dated 22:02:49  06-10-91  5421 <--> 5446
From: PETE BIRO
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

You could have saved all the work by reading Al Koran's lecture notes
...I think the tossed out deck was David Hoy's. Have you tried the
Paul Fox gimmick? Fogel's 2nd Spot is a KILLER. I have used it and it
scared me as later, people were surrounding me to find out if I was a
real psychic and could I do personal readings at their homes.
I said, Gee, but didn't the comedy linking rings and the egg bag
make you think I was no more than a clever trickster? Arrrggghhhh

Msg #5440  Dated 22:02:59  06-10-91  5423 <--> 5453
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   WHAT IF

FREE wheeling? When did it become FREE?

Msg #5441  Dated 22:03:03  06-10-91  5425 <--> 5457
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC2DB

Where is MAGIC2DB?

Msg #5442  Dated 22:03:07  06-10-91  5434 <--> 5452
From: PETE BIRO
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Gee Max, nice to know I have been using an actual term all these
years. How's it goin? Gettin' ready to go to FISM. Just got my
confirmation of registration and hotel. Jay Marshall and I are to
share a room. Now just got to figure out the easiest way to get
there!

Msg #5445  Dated 22:59:02  06-10-91  5430 <--> 5475
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

So they _did_ make the Trower show?  Great.

It's too late tonight to call.  Will collect WGA info manana and send
it down via MAGIC!

Msg #5446  Dated 23:01:29  06-10-91  5433 <--> 5447
From: RICHARD HART
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Ah, thank you Max.  I knew you'd come through for me!

So to Mssrs Fetch, Warlock, Hoy, and Thompson Jr. I offer my thanks.
It is from your good works that I derive so much pleasure, and
hopefully, my audiences as well.

Msg #5447  Dated 23:14:46  06-10-91  5421 <--> 5448
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

You make a lot of sense.

Msg #5448  Dated 23:07:17  06-10-91  5439 <--> 5449
From: RICHARD HART
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Thanks for the Tossed-out Deck creator, Pete.  Yes, I have the Paul Fox
gimmick, and may use it if and when I ever get around to designing show
number II.  Right now, I'm still polishing show number 1 and with it,
cultivating my stage persona.  Do me a favor though, Pete.  Sometime in
the late autumn of 1996, when I'm done with show 1 and beginning to
start on show two, would you be so kind as to remind me to use the Fox
thing?  I think it'd be great about 3rd or 4th on the programme!

Msg #5449  Dated 23:15:30  06-10-91  5432 <--> 5450
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   MAX MAVEN (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Max, Max, Max--

A.  I did not bring up the amateur/profession dinstinction, I mentioned
in the course of discussion the word amateur, because I think that as
far as mentalism goes, the distance between audience and performer is
usually greater, and that this is simply easier for a pro.  Period.
B.  I know you didn't suggest mentalism ought to be serious.  My
comment indicated that I note, in my opinion, that a majority of
successful presentations are pretty serious.  I actually think it's
cool.  It's threatre.  It's not a knock, _Max_.
C.  I'm not making myself clear.  I'm not suggesting that I want to
show the audience I can see their writing.  I'm saying that presenting
an effect as a magi, rather than as a mentalist, you are much less
taking the position that you can really, really, really read minds.
So, in the effect I brought up, this puts you in the strange position
of doing something that appears to be too impossible.

I sense a potential condundrum forming here.  What I'd REALLY love to
know are you thougts on magi presenting mentalism in a magician's,
rather than a mentalist's context.  I just see the straight-on
mentalist's (serious) approach being so much more viscerally effective,
I'm wondering if you can (or should) get that kind of juice as a magi
presenting the same effect.  I mean, isn't it for some distantly
related reasons that certain magi's choose to create psuedonymous
identities for the presentation of such?

Msg #5450  Dated 23:21:58  06-10-91  5446 <--> 5451
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

What is Fogel's Second Spot?

Msg #5451  Dated 23:17:46  06-10-91  5447 <--> 5454
From: RICHARD HART
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

  I do try.  I enter stuff here realtime and sometimes have a
hard time getting my point across.  You should see the agony I go
through when scripting my routines!

Had a thought about the W.O.W. effect.  You seem very concerned that
some of your audience may believe you've only memorized the first word
of every page of two books.  In effect, you HAVE!  Remember that.
Perhaps you could work on a presentation of the very thing you abhor!
Add another dummy book.  Force one of the other two using the
equivoque.  (By the way, if you don't already own a copy of Phil
Goldstein's Verbal Control, I suggest you get one immediately!  I would
venture to say that of all the essays on the "magician's choice"
extant, this one is the ultimate.  If I'd have paid $1,000 bucks for
it, I would still consider it a bargain.  And no, I ain't just kissin'
up here.  Far from it.  I just know valuable merchandise when I read
it!)  Anyway, you've now increased the number of words you would have
had to memorize by 1/3.  Figuring 200 pages per book times 3 books
would be 600 words you'd have to memorize.  Not to mention memorizing
the cross index!  That, in itself, is a meaty task!  Could you feel
content presenting the effect more as a memorization than as a
mind-read?

Just a thought.

Msg #5452  Dated 23:49:00  06-10-91  5389 <--> 5456
From: T A WATERS
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

Is the ZBS stuff running on KCRW or some other local station?  Any new
Jack Flanders series?

Msg #5453  Dated  0:04:39  06-11-91  5409 <--> 5458
From: T A WATERS
To:   DAVID VANVRANKEN (X)
Re:   WHAT IF

Of course the main thrust of all that is that somebody wants to
performs something they've seen someone else doing -- the sort of thing
that ought to be actively discouraged rather than assisted.

Msg #5454  Dated 23:50:19  06-10-91  5450 <--> 5455
From: RICHARD HART
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Fogel's Second Spot is a presentation of an effect popularized by
Annemann known as Pseudo-psychometry (from The Jinx).  Max or Pete
could probably pin down the originator of this effect, the best I can
do is the Annemann reference.

The effect is this:  Several spectators each secrete a personal item
in as many closed containers (envelopes, bags, cans, etc.) unseen by
the performer.  The performer then has the containers collected and
mixed.  Upon extracting each article, the performer successfully
determines the correct owner of each item, and gives a reading based
upon "vibrations" received via "psychometry".

As Pete has already mentioned, performed correctly, the effect is a
killer.  Fogel's routine in my opinion, _maximizes_ the entertainment
value of this effect.  Well worth the $50 I paid Joe Stevens for it.

Msg #5455  Dated  0:06:58  06-11-91  5412 <--> 5461
From: T A WATERS
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Let me go way out on a limb here and offer the opinion that mentalism
in a magic act is not only a waste of time but also almost impossible;
mental magic is only slightly less problematic.  If you have your
choice of WATCHING (magic is supposed to be visual) someone produce a
dove or nice-looking person OR fiddling around with a jumbo deck for a
while and then show a named card reversed, which would you rather see?
 What this comes down to is that the only thing mentalism has going for
it is the dramatic line; if that is gone, as it is except for the small
percent of total shuteyes in the audience, mentalism and mental magic
are the most boring kind of preformance there is.
  You will thus not be surprised to hear me say that I think that
"momentarily ducking under the mentalism cloak" is not only inadvisable
-- it is damn near impossible for anyone less than a performing genius.

Msg #5456  Dated  0:16:01  06-11-91  5452 <--> 5591
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   NEW THREAD

A ZBS fan!  Guess I should have known.  Actually, I only heard a small
slice of their stuff on PBR.  Immediately phoned 'em from the car and
ordered the Ruby tapes.  Have Ruby, Ruby 2, and Ruby 3 - Part 1.  Plan
to get Ruby 3 - Part 2 since it is now out.  Have never heard the
Flanders but just got a card from ZBS in the mail - a trial deal - one
tape from Moon Over Morocco and one from Fourth Tower of Inverness for
the price of postage.

Msg #5457  Dated  0:20:09  06-11-91  5441 <--> 5498
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   MAGIC2DB

You now have it.  Amazing sometimes how MAGIC! senses exactly what you
need - a very responsive system.

Msg #5458  Dated  0:25:02  06-11-91  5440 <--> 5464
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   PETE BIRO (X)
Re:   WHAT IF

True - I was refering to the ball bearing at the bottom of the disk
pak.

Msg #5461  Dated  0:30:55  06-11-91  5451 <--> 5462
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Actually, presenting it as a memorization effect is a pretty cool idea!
 I think I like them thinking (sort of) than I can read minds better
than I like them thinking I'm a memory expert BUT, if they'll never
believe I can read minds, and they WILL believe I'm an amazing
memorizer, maybe...

Y'know, all this stuff is predicated on the idea I can't convince
people I'm a serious mindreader.  And the more I think about this, you
need to do this to suspend disbelief in a mentalism effect.  I guess
I'm just not real comfortable with the role.  Anybody else share that
feeling?

Aside, you mentioned WOW III before.  Does at bother you, as it
bothers me, that the books themselves are kind of silly?

Msg #5462  Dated  0:15:50  06-11-91  5455 <--> 5463
From: RICHARD HART
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

My gut instinct is to stand up and wildly applaud your comments, T.A.

But.

Perhaps I've been entranced by a just-finished reading of Burger's
Strange Ceremonies.  Maybe I'm full of piss and vinegar after reading
Ammar's new book.  I don't know.  Blame it on the dirth of the Maven's
stuff I've been wading through for the past two weeks.  I entered
Fellini's tunnel and came out a new man.  I'm starting to think that
anything _is_ possible.  "Oh sure", you'll say, "Just up his dose of
lithium and Thorazine, and he'll be o.k."  Mebbe, jus' mebbe.

But after all, I've seen Copperfield do it.  Hell, man, he vanished a
gol-durned billion-pounder railroad car, and all I hear is "Did you end
up in the dining car too?"  Shee-it, if you lined up all the people
knocked cold by that MENTALISM routine end to end, I'll bet they'd
stretch from here to Nirvana!

So it can be done.  Yes, it may be "damn near impossible for anyone
less than a performing genius".

But ain't it our job to do the impossible?

Msg #5463  Dated  0:34:07  06-11-91  5455 <--> 5467
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Interesting.  I'm beginning to come to a related conclusion -- that I
just related to Richard Hart.  And that is that mentalism effects
require the performer to act a certain way to engage the audience's
suspension of disbelief.  This may seem obvious to an experienced
performer like yourself or Max, but it isn't to me.  I also mentioned
in that same message that the reason for my position is that I'm just
not comfortable assuming what I see as the "serious mentalist role."
Perhaps there may be another presentation.  All that seems necessary on
a base level, is that you be serious about saying you can read minds.
 The rest of the presentation, I guess, need not be burdened with
serious, temple-rubbing stuff...

My major problem with doing this kind of thing on an intimate basis to
friends and acquaintances (not a formal performing situation), is that
they will quickly jump  to the question/conclusion that the distancing
factors in the serious presentation stop people from assaulting you
with -- if you can really read minds why do I have to pick one of these
two books?  Why do I have to... and so on...

Msg #5464  Dated  0:39:38  06-11-91  5453 <--> 5472
From: EVAN KATZ
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   WHAT IF

But that's reality, T A.  Sure, professionals are not expected to steal
each other's material, but amateurs buy these books and videos because
they don't have the time/talent/inclination to create and we spend most
of our magic time performing something they've seen someone else doing!

I am not, of course, speaking of this specific occasion, as this was a
not a how-to video.  Just that discouraging people from performing
other people's effects flies in the face of reality!

Msg #5467  Dated  0:52:53  06-11-91  5449 <--> 5468
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

I realize that you did not state your intention to present the book
test as a demonstration of the performer's ability to read hidden
writing. However, if you think about it, that is precisely what the
effect will become if you pull away from a "telepathic" presentation
and deliberately provide the circumstance of the spectator writing the
word down for no other apparent reason than the viability of the
performer accessing it. Again, from what you've been saying it sounds
to me like you do not want to do mentalism -- which is fine, but does
not explain why you still want to do a book test.

My opinion concerning mentalism (or mental magic) being performed by a
magician is not identical to T.A.'s; I think it's almost always a bad
idea, but I think it is possible (although the odds are poor for
yielding a good result, theatrically).

Your speculation about pseudonyms is incorrect.

Msg #5468  Dated  0:40:20  06-11-91  5461 <--> 5469
From: RICHARD HART
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Yes, it does.  Very much so, in fact.  And with the same intensity as
chewing aluminum foil on newly-filled teeth it does.  Pisses me off to
no end!  Believe me when I say that if I had spare money to burn, I'd
have custom dustjackets printed for the books I'd really like to use.
But I don't, so I improvise.  Much can be "gotten away with" given the
proper patter.  In my case, with the Love book and the Rabbit book as
supplied with III, I sex up the love book (titter-titter, a book about
the love of God!) with the practical applications about raising
rabbits...  Cheap shots, to be sure, but what-tha-hell, if they buy it.

Msg #5469  Dated  0:57:55  06-11-91  5454 <--> 5479
From: MAX MAVEN
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Pseudo-Psychometry in its standard form was created by Annemann, but of
course his idea was a replication of a legit procedure.

Msg #5472  Dated  1:55:57  06-11-91  5423 <--> 5473
From: DAVID VANVRANKEN
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   WHAT IF

Definately! As long as we have the freedom to speak, we should have
the freedom to discuss, argue, whatever.  I've found myself
preferring the company of Magic! over going to "live" magic meetings.

It's so much livelier here than watching someone demonstrate endless
variations on thumb tips, or other such items.

Stan has the right to mention Max's effect (although maybe in the
wrong way) just as Max has the right to chastise him for saying it.

David (the other one)

Msg #5473  Dated  1:56:11  06-11-91  5429 <--> 5474
From: DAVID VANVRANKEN
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   WHAT IF

Thank YOU, It's strange that magic can happen when you least expect
it.  And I wasn't even holding a deck of cards!

David (the other one)

Msg #5474  Dated  1:56:20  06-11-91  5453 <--> 5496
From: DAVID VANVRANKEN
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   WHAT IF

Why then, do so many Magicians (maybe magic enthusiasts is more
accurate) flock to conventions and lectures? I've not yet heard any-
one (of any importance) say they want more TRICKS they can do, and
less of the theory and creativity stuff. Maybe if we can help these
people to LEARN these tricks instead of just "doing" them, something
just might sink in and they can't help themselves but to THINK about
what their doing and what they can do to make their PERFORMANCE
better. I admit, I was one of the "flock" (and still am, to a degree)
but I'm proud to say I haven't tried to learn more than one new trick
in about a year now. I am much happier trying to polish my technique
and presentation of what I already know. One of these days, something
might "click" and I'll invent one of my very own!

David (the other one)

Msg #5475  Dated  2:32:12  06-11-91  5268 <--> 5478
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Good idea, shall I add that as option to RDMAGIC. Everyone, but
Evan & Max will be given a choice.
.
<1/2 S>

Msg #5476  Dated  2:32:34  06-11-91  5284 <--> 5487
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

I don't have it mounted over my bed. Right now I set it up in the
back room. I made it out of copper pipe and heavy copper wire. Mine
is four feet on a side. Have been fooling around with some of the
experiments in the book I mentioned and will report on the results.

Msg #5477  Dated  2:32:41  06-11-91  5281 <--> 5488
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

Theoretically, when everyone is using RDMAGIC and reading and repling
off-line, why would anyone (other than non-IBM users) what to stay
on-line to read and reply ?

Msg #5478  Dated  2:32:47  06-11-91  5430 <--> 5486
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   TABBY CRABB (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Hang in there, dude, we'll be there in 2 weeks to take your mind off
the crap in life and have some magical moments.
.
Burton the Bizzare.

Msg #5479  Dated  2:32:54  06-11-91  5300 <--> 5480
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

An example of the 'Too Pefect Theory' is Michael Skinner's 3 card
monte. He suggests that you do a false 'move' to implant the idea
that there is a slight involved, otherwise the spectator may start
to think about there being something wrong with the cards.
.
Without the false move, the routine is just 'Too Perfect' to be
believed.
.
Another example is Tagaki's matrix routine, where he is using a
spider vanish, and makes false moves with the other hand to make
the effect work.
.
The W.O.W. book test question that Evan originally posed, it seems to
me, is not necessarily an application of this principle. There must
be a reason given for writing down the word, but I don't see that as
being an application of the Too Perfect Theory.
.
I think the principle applies to effects that unless you add some
extra (or even unnecesaary) moves to reinforce the spectators belief
in the direction you wish him to take, it is just 'Too Perfect' and
he starts thinking along a line you don't want him to.
.
Burton the Bizarre.

Msg #5480  Dated  2:33:17  06-11-91  5462 <--> 5481
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Do you think people really thought that the train car routine was
an exhibition of 'mentalism' ? He didn't present it that way. And
yes people were blown away by it as a magic trick.

Msg #5481  Dated  2:33:23  06-11-91  5463 <--> 5494
From: JERRY BURTON
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

One approach to solving this problem is to introduce a source of
power 'outside' your self that you can TAP into. E.g. a crystal ball,
or even a regular crystal can 'give' you insights that you don't
normally posess.
.
Have them write down the word then you burn it inside  a pentagram,
and read the ashes. It takes the heat off of you, it becomes a power
source you can use. You can't read minds, but the spirits can, etc.
.
Burton the Bizarre.

Msg #5482  Dated  5:01:02  06-11-91
From: HARRISON CARROLL
To:   DAVID VANVRANKEN (X)
Re:   PROCOMM PLUS

Thanks for the info and help on the Magic.asp file. I'll download it.
If I have any questions, I'll give you a shout. Thanks Again!

Msg #5484  Dated  5:05:12  06-11-91  -> 5489
From: HARRISON CARROLL
To:   TABBY CRABB
Re:   MAIL

Tabby: Did you get the mail I sent you a couple of weeks ago? I don't
see anything on here that you got it.

Msg #5485  Dated  6:05:54  06-11-91
From: CHARLIE RANDALL
To:   ALL
Re:   TRICK IN SPACE

Just downloaded a bunch of messages - trying to catch up on everything
I've missed this last week here and everywhere else!  Don't know if
anyone has mentioned it yet but Dr. Jim Bagian performed the first
trick in space on Sunday evening.  He performed Ultra Mental deck
effect (or whatever it is that you call the face-up version of
Brainwave).  I talked with Blackstone the other night, who is
responsible for all this, and he said Jim might perform several other
things.  Keep an eye out for others.
  When I get a little time, I'll report on my trip to L.A.  Had a great
time, got to me a lot of people, and hung out at the Castle.  MOre
later.
                                          Charlie

Msg #5486  Dated  7:21:29  06-11-91  5475 <--> 5491
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

No need to add it to RDMAGIC.  We're going to progam MAGIC! to take
care of it.  As a matter of fact, I'm going to add another feature -
Pete's messages will be tagged  OR  on a random basis.

Msg #5487  Dated  7:23:27  06-11-91  5476 <-
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   RDMAGIC

Don't suggest you sit under it in an earthquake!  Will be interested in
your report.

Msg #5488  Dated  7:25:42  06-11-91  5477 <--> 5502
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   JERRY BURTON (X)
Re:   SECTIONS II

It isn't a matter of staying on-line, it is a matter of the time it
takes to "keep up" and to read everything!  On the other hand, the
average daily newspaper is still huge compared to MAGIC!

Msg #5489  Dated  7:47:07  06-11-91  5484 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   HARRISON CARROLL
Re:   MAIL

Hi Harrison: Somehow got the idea you were on the road til the mid of
 June and didn't wanna put a msg up and have it disseapear before you
got a chance to read it. YES, I got the package, THANK YOU. Download
David (the other one) 's Magic.ASP file and sub your own name and
PW into it and run it with PC+. Should work fine. Hope things are goi
NG well with you and yours. Tell Ray I sed Hey.

Msg #5491  Dated  7:47:25  06-11-91  5445 <-
From: TABBY CRABB
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   REVEWZ

Yeah, made the Trower show. Had to rent gear, etc, but mission
accomplished as made the MCA connection I needed. The kids (BP) were
great that night. Rock is fueled by fire and they'd (me too) been
quite close to the flame. Am better today after 10 hrs sleep. I hadnt
had much til last night. Thanks for your concern.

Msg #5492  Dated  7:50:50  06-11-91
From: DAVID LICHTMAN (Sysop)
To:   ARNAUD VANRIETSCHOTEN (X)
Re:   FLOURISHES...

TO: ARNOUD VAN DELDEN

The following message was sent by Harrison Carroll.  His word
processor appears to be creating unusual characters and the
message had to be reloaded.  The message includes everything that
was received in the original.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Msg #5483-13 MAGIC!  Dated  5:03:13  06-11-91  3949 <-
From: HARRISON CARROLL
To:   ARNAUD VANRIETSCHOTEN
Re:   FLOURISHES...

responding...  I'm reminded of watching street jugglers and other
skill acts.  They start with something simple and make it look
difficult.  They progressively convince the audience that they are
extending themselves, pushing the limits of their own skill.
Ultimately they close with a seemingly impossible feat.  And if
they miss once or twice before actually accomplishing their
miracle, they just add to the strength of the effect.  The ones
with good acts are very successful.  Perhaps the magician who
would add a lot of flourishes can present them the same way.
Often the ones I've seen use them as throwaways.  The projected
attitude is, "look, aren't I great?" But if they really built up
the flourish before doing it, it would become an effect in itself.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Msg #5494  Dated  8:16:38  06-11-91  5448 <--> 5495
From: PETE BIRO
To:   RICHARD HART (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

Print this message "USE PAUL FOX GIMMICK...SOON" put it under your
pillow, and in the morning it will still be there.

Msg #5495  Dated  8:16:44  06-11-91  5449 <--> 5497
From: PETE BIRO
To:   EVAN KATZ (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

It is a shame you never saw Al Koran work. A sharp, well dressed (he
said in his lecture... "forget tricks -- go out and buy the most
expensive suit you can afford" -- etc.
.
His approach was to walk on, do the linking rings (A magic trick) to
get their attention (he mostly worked after dinner cabaret affairs in
and around London) then commence his presentation of "Mentalism". If
you can, buy all of his books (there are only 3 or 4) and study the
simplicity and direct approach he favored. He was very entertaining,
not rioutously FUNNY, but very "light" in many ways.
.
Once again, IN MY FUMBLE OPINION, it is the personality -- READ
"LIKABLE" ATTITUDE that is most important.
.
I repeat here. Some years back, at a San Diego IBM convention, I was
asked - at the last minute - to perform for the Ladies Brunch. Being
a silly goose on stage I decided to experiment, doing some of my
usual comedic crap BUT TO ADD some mental effects. I did Koran's
Medallion, Shaxon's Confabulation (triple prediction) and Fogel's
Second Spot. I had NEVER done the Psychometry for an audience. OK,
my point... "I was a KNOWN Magician, started with Magic (rings, egg
bag, card in balloon) segued into mentalism... and at the finish I
was scared crazy when I was rushed by people that believed I could
really read thier minds.... aaaarrrrggggghhhhhh (No wonder Geller is
so successful. He tells 'em HE CAN! DOUBLE ARGH!

Msg #5496  Dated  8:17:11  06-11-91  5453 <--> 5500
From: PETE BIRO
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   WHAT IF

The Davenport family would always know where "Lewis Davenport" was
appearing (on the road in Music Hall) by the orders that would come
into the shop from various towns for the Mutilated Parasol.

Msg #5497  Dated  8:17:19  06-11-91  5455 <--> 5503
From: PETE BIRO
To:   T A WATERS (X)
Re:   "TOO PERFECT"

You are right T A -- but there "are" a few Performing Genius types
out there... A FEW...

Msg #5498  Dated  8:17:26  06-11-91  5457 <--> 5505
From: PETE BIRO
To:   DAVID LICHTMAN (SYSOP) (X)
Re:   MAGIC2DB

When the letters appear on the Keyboard a fraction of a second before
I type them it must be MAGIC!  Or is Anneman alive and well online?

--- END OF MAGIC-31 ---